CWO looking for a copy of lease, but there isn't one in writing

I have a house let for the last 3 years to very good tenants.

They were on a fixed term lease for 1 year & I had a chat at the end & we all agreed to move to a Part 4 lease which would give them flexibility of they needed to move during the year.

One person moved out a few months back & a new tenant moved in (the tenants arranged this themselves). I was asked to sign the paperwork for rent allowance, which I did.

They came back looking for proof that the property was mine & a copy of the lease. I forwarded a copy of the PRTB cert & details of previous tenants who were on rent allowance and a letter stating the tenant were on a Part 4 lease & hence there is no lease to forward.

They have written back looking for a copy of the lease for the new tenant with details of his rent - the house is rented as a whole.

I'm not sure what to do as i don't want a separate contract with this one tenant as opposed to the whole house & it seems unfair to tie everyone else into a fixed lease. Anyone any solution ? It is impossible to get through to the number provided & apparently the queues at the office is for HOURS (plus an hours drive away)

Thanks!!

If you do not provide a written lease with the appropriate annex stating that the lease acts as the rent book, you are obliged to provide each tenant with a rent book which shows all the necessary details - landlord, tenant, rent details, emergency contact number and an address to where any legal documents may be served on a landlord by a tenant.

When an exiting tenant leaves and a new tenant takes over that persons lease, it is an assignment and to complete an assignment legally, a Deed of Assignment should be completed - this should also act as good proof of a new tenant.

However, Social welfare and CWOs often have rules of their own and a different CWO may accept a formal letter signed by landlord and tenant which sets out the details of the rental agreement.

Again, there is nothing stopping you have the tenants sign a Part 4 lease agreement which is very similar to a fixed term agreement with minor alterations.

If you do not provide a written lease with the appropriate annex stating that the lease acts as the rent book, you are obliged to provide each tenant with a rent book which shows all the necessary details - landlord, tenant, rent details, emergency contact number and an address to where any legal documents may be served on a landlord by a tenant.

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Thanks - The original Fixed Lease had all of this, they all know my number & where I live. They get reciepts for the rent paid (not indivually, but for the total rent). As I said, the rent was rented as a whoe, I was only made aware of the new tenant after it was all sorted

Again, there is nothing stopping you have the tenants sign a Part 4 lease agreement which is very similar to a fixed term agreement with minor alterations.

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Is there a "written part 4 Lease" aggrement, where would I get it from?
I wrote to the CWO stating that the rental agreement was now a Part 4 lease, which I understood does not have to be in writing (formally) as they automatically divert to one in the absence of a fixed lease.

They want me to issue a lease to him with the exact amunt of rent he pays, however, I don't get the rent from the individually, the entire amount is lodged once a month. I don't want to issue a specific lease to this on tenant as I reckon it would alter the aggrement with the other tenants.

They make the rent allowance so difficult, it makes it off putting to take someone. He's a lovely guy, but I don't need all this extra hassle for his portion of the rent.

Part 4 lease available [broken link removed]
You can, of course add clauses that were in the original fixed term lease such as No pets etc. as these automatically continue when the fixed term expired. Always best to have it in writing. This avoids any possible doubt.

The SWA Officer is trying to be certain that (a) it's not a sub-let by other tenants, and (b) that it is a bona fide tenancy, which is one of the qualifying conditions for Rent Supplement.

In order to calculate the tenant's entitlement to Rent Supplement, they need to know exactly what rent he is charged.

Thanks for the link - I will give the existing tenants a copy for clarity.

BUT is does not solve my problem - the CWO wrote:

"please can you supply a lease from you landlord clearly stating how much your rent is. We require a lease from every tenant and can't accept a pre-existing lease"

This would require me to issue him with his own lease specifying he is paying €xx per month.
As there is already a lease for the property (as a whole, not individually) I see this as being a legal issue as:
- I can't have 2 leases on the one property (usless I was renting rooms, which I am not)
- I can forsee issues down the road if all of the other tenants moved out, he would have a separate lease allowing him to stay there for a fraction of the price.

I have completed forms stating what his portion of the rent is, they have copies of the PRTB, they are satisfied I own the property but I really don;t think I can (or want) to give him his own individual lease.

Thanks again!!

The SWA Officer is trying to be certain that (a) it's not a sub-let by other tenants, and (b) that it is a bona fide tenancy, which is one of the qualifying conditions for Rent Supplement.

In order to calculate the tenant's entitlement to Rent Supplement, they need to know exactly what rent he is charged.

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I do understand they want clarity and I have no problem with that but I believe I have already given it to them. Everything is above board - I even sent them the email I sent to the PRTB adding him to the tenancy, this can only be done by the Landlord or an approved agent. I wrote a letter explaining the situation with the existing tenants & the Part 4 tenancy. They want a new lease with his exact start date and his rent contribution.

I gave all my contact details & asked for them to contact me directly if they had any further questions or concerns (as I said, it is impossible to get through to them).

I think I will need to the tell the tenant I can not give him what he is looking for as I do not see how I can superceed an existing tenancy: as I said above, I reckon this would be illegal and I could face the consequences down the road.

This will mean he will probably have to seek individualy accomodation, which will be more expensive.

One of the problems with renting a house as a single unit is that all the tenants are "jointly and severally liable" for the rent and other outgoings.

Personally, I see this as a problem, especially in the case of someone claiming SW - an SW tenant would obviously not be able to pay the full rent of the unit.

Again, moving in with tenants you do not know, would seem to me to be a possible disaster. I am currently looking to rent and my last option would be to move into a house share. I would prefer to be with a live-in landlord or rent somewhere by myself than be stuck with a lease (even if it is a part 4 tenancy) and people I don't know.

However, as regards renting a room as opposed to renting a house as a single unit, you would probably get more overall on a room basis, with not that much extra work involved (except several PRTB registrations for the same property).

This is very complicated with the social welfare. I have social welfare tenants and have filled out forms and never had any bother and I've no leases.

Surely the OP can type out a couple of sentences to give social welfare what they want.

In addition I don't see why OP cannot telephone the person in the rent allowance and talk to them. I've very easily managed this myself when the need arose.

It is not the law that you have to have a written lease and social welfare shouldn't be making up such rules. But OP should be able to demonstrate that the tenant is in fact a tenant and that he is a landlord etc.

Surely the OP can type out a couple of sentences to give social welfare what they want.

In addition I don't see why OP cannot telephone the person in the rent allowance and talk to them. I've very easily managed this myself when the need arose.

It is not the law that you have to have a written lease and social welfare shouldn't be making up such rules. But OP should be able to demonstrate that the tenant is in fact a tenant and that he is a landlord etc.

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Bronte - I have typed out a letter explaining the situation & left all my contact detail but they did not come back to me, they wrote to the tenant asking for what i had explained I could not give them. But gave them all PRTB stuff, signed all forms, satisfied proof of ownerships etc

I have tried to call, but the case is not with my local health centre, it is over in Tallaght & they do not answer the phone (it cuts off after little while saying they are too busy, try it if you don't believe me!!! 1890800698)

When I spoke to the local office, the person kept saying that I MUST have a written lease with him directly, which I reckon I don't.

TBH, I reckon it is too much hassle, I typed up a letter last night explaining everything (again) but if they don't accept it, I reckon he will have to find somewhere else.

Thanks for all the advise!

(PS - I have had social welfare tenants before also with no problems, but this is different as it is 1 social welfare tenant who has moved in with existing non-social tenants & this is what is causing the problem)

What is stopping you from drawing up a Part 4 lease for the house?. It cant be that difficult. You can then indicate to the CWO that this tenant is paying a quarter or whatever of the total rent amount on the lease.