Current Israel and Palestine

O

owensy

Guest
Clearly this is a major problem for all who live in this area of the world.. i feel pain for both sets of people. The Palestinian people who want their country and the innocent people of Israel who cant even take a bus without the treat of a bomb.
I am not taking any sides but just wonder without the whole story of the US backing Israel etc etc ... where can you see the conflict actually going.

Will it be like the north where years of suffering has lead to almost peace or can these two groups ever co-inhabit together.
 
> the treat of a bomb.

I'm partial to the smell of napalm in the morning meself.
 
The 64000 dollar question. 12 years ago, with the famous (if somewhat forced) handshake on the whitehouse lawn, prospects for middle east peace looked reasonably good. Meantime, the unionists had yet to sit in the same room as Sinn Fein, yet alone speak to them or (god forbid) shake hands.

However, the years roll on, we're (more or less) at peace; the Palestinian situation is worse than ever. Why? I don't believe the tribal hatred in the north is any less visceral than in the middle east. however i'd identify two main factors that are radically different in the two situations.


external influences.
In the North, the unionists received somewhat grudging support from the UK government, especially after Thatcher retired. Equally, the irish government acted as a moderating brake on the IRA. Basically, the two governments (in fairness, the Irish far more than the British) championed the peace process and brought pressure to bear on the "hard men."
In contrast, the US government continues to underwrite the Israelis with huge financial and military support no matter how bad their behaviour. This may well be as a result of the electoral power of the Jewish lobby in the US, but it hugely inhibits the US acting as a force for moderation. Equally, Iran, Iraq, Syria and other arab states actively sponsor Palestinian violence.

Economic Factors
From the 60's to today, the Catholic community in the north grew in economic wealth, moving into the professions and higher paid employment. Emigration declined and participation in higher education soared. This gives them a greater stake in society and tends to turn people towards politics rather than violence to address their grievances.
In contrast, in the middle east, most palestinians live in dire poverty. Unsurprisingly, they feel as if they have little to lose and are easily recruited to violence, jihad and suicide bombing squads.

Having identified the causes, solutions suggest themselves rather easily.
- Get US agreement that all aid to Israel is dependent on adherence to basic human rights principles. (the most difficult bit!)
- Station independent peace enforcement army in West Bank/Gaza (probably an EU force, definitely not US or Arab)
- Huge economic aid program for civil reconstruction in Palestine, dependent on a cessation of violence.


Simple, huh?
 
Observer makes some good points.

I can clearly recognise that there are faults on both sides.
Personally, I think the solution will eventually come when Arrafat goes, or is removed (but only if by his own people) and we have a more moderate government in Israel...or at least not a maniac like Sharon at the helm. Moderates will broker peace. Nothing else works.

In saying that...I feel it's probably a long way off.

> the treat of a bomb.

I'm partial to the smell of napalm in the morning meself.
:rollin
 
Congratulations Observer,

Most honest and non-controversial reply I have seen in a while.
I would add one minor point:
-Solve the issue of the disputed territories

Not giving my opinion on how that is done or who is right or wrong though
 
Yeah I have to agree with Observer. Its amazing how simple these things are on paper. The only problem is getting them done in practice.

Maceface you are right. The territory issue must be sorted out. This however is an extremely difficult and sensitive situation and it is hard to see how a compromise can be reached that will suit both sides ?!!

For a start, as observer said, many Palestinians live in dire poverty and this makes them very susceptible to joining jihad or suicide bomb campaigns, etc, etc. Therefore I think the first step that should be taken is to get the ball rolling in regards to the economic aid program that is needed to rebuild Palestine !!
 
Agree with maceface and prometheus2; of course the question of the occupied territories must be sorted out. However, this is a long term project. Firstly, the security situation must be stabilised. This requires a peace enforcement force that is not unacceptable to either side. That rules out (at the very least) Israeli, Arab and American troops. On an interim basis, such a force must guarantee the safety, security and human rights of both the Palestinians, the "settlers" and protect the borders of the state of Israel proper. Only then will an environment be created which is conducive to resolution of the territorial issues by negotiation between the parties themselves. Of course, generous application of external aid will tend to focus minds on achieving a solution!
 
Middle East

Can anybody point me to a concise online explanation of the Israel/Palestine conflict?
 
Re: Middle East

Can anybody point me to a concise online explanation of the Israel/Palestine conflict?

That's a bit of a loaded question. It depends really. History wise you might find this a helpful site. I just googled for it now. There's plenty of journalists writing about it though and not just the stuff you hear on the news. John Pilger is one of those journalists whom I read from time to time.
 
tip o the cap to piggy/ralph/hypocrite

what the hell is loaded about that question? your answer is certainly loaded, read pilger for lessons in left bias.
 
Re: Middle East

You can read more about Palestine from Pilger [broken link removed] and make up your own mind on his journalism.
 
Israel / West bank

Ownsey: You say: 'The Palestinian people want their country'. But the state of Israel is NOT their country and never was. There never was a 'Palestinian' country or state. The previous 'country' in the area was the Ottoman Empire. After the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in WW1 the League of Nations broke up the Ottoman Empire into about seven independent states. The League didn't think that some of the locals were 'civilised' enough to run their own countries so France and the UK were mandated to look after the states that later became Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Israel and Jordan. After WW2 the UN dissolved the UK mandate and established Israel. There was supposed to be a 'Palestinian Arab State' in the area that is more or less the current West Bank but the territory was annexed by Jordan when it invaded Israel in 1947. You say: 'I am not taking any sides'. I think you must. There is a moral obligation on all who believe in freedom and democracy to support democratic Israel which is under attack from Islamic despotism, terrorism, military dictatorships, medieval theocracies, etc. Israel has been under attack from the surrounding arab states, all various shades of totalitarianism, dictatorship or despotism, since its foundation. With the exception of Jordan and Egypt all the surrounding arab states have not revoked their declarations of war, which have been in place since its foundation, against Israel. It is Israel that is under attack, it is the innocent party, the victim - not the arabs. Observers comments are ludicrous. There is no comparison between Northern Ireland - a bean fight between two European Christian cults - and Israel where democratic Western Jews are under attack from terrorists, many of which - Hamas, Al Aqusa martyrs brigade, etc. - state that their objective is the destruction of the state of Israel. Observer says: 'Get US agreement that all aid to Israel is dependent on adherence to basic human rights principles.' Would you ever get real? Israel has an independent supreme court, democracy, a free press, free universities, free political parties, private property, the rule of law, free enterprise, etc. The country is based on Western values including respect for human rights. None of the surrounding arab totalitarian states have any of these. Of course, there is a human rights deficit in the Middle East but it is in the arab states not in Israel.
 
oh dear god

Qoute
"There is a moral obligation on all who believe in freedom and democracy to support democratic Israel which is under attack from Islamic despotism, terrorism, military dictatorships, medieval theocracies, etc"

Listening to rubbish like this will warp your mind. Read what's out there on the internet and you'll read the real story. There are problems on both sides. Israel is suffering from suicide bombings and constant security threats...but they don't help matters by the way they treat the Palestinians who have been mstreated for decades now. Their land taken from them, their women and children murdered in the name of self-defence. This is very much a two-sided story like the North is/was. Moral obligation to support Israel :rolleyes
 
guess who it is Mr Bacon

Hey Piggle Snout,

Well done with ralph. Very funny. Thought u might like ta know who the bad smell is following u around. It's none udder dan TB himself. I guess he went underground after we all took the mick outta him so much. A lot of resentment there y'know. Seems he took a big dislike to u dough. Maybe cos dltnr isn't round much anymore. Console yourself in the knowledge that he must be a sad boy indeed to be plotting against u like dis all de time. Imagine wat his social life is like...pigs on dartboards more than likely. Keep an eye out for im. He logs in a lot...just never posts under TB anymore. Y'can tell dough its im. Your very own stalker...lucky u.
 
Heroic hypocrite

I never posted as TB. I have to say I'm astounded that P has a fan! (One who thinks appearing semi-literate is a hoot, but nevermind.)

While we're at social lives here, I have a little theory about Piggy/Ralph/Hypocrite. I did briefly wonder about the unflattering moniker Piggy, then forgot about it. But then Ralph. Another Lord of the Flies reference, that and the occassional unecessary reference to himself having a fab social life and it made some sense: Piggy identifies with Piggy. The fat and crap sniveller who is in fact a hero.

With this gem I shall retire from LOS so the nitwit doesn't p*ss me off with his inane opinion pieces any more and foolish emoticons.
 
you're not mad really

Hey TB, u really need to seek pyschiatric help for that little hate problem u have. You dont sound very stable.
 
Re: you're not mad really

Ownsey: You say: 'The Palestinian people want their country'.
Click to expand...
True and why wouldn't they?

But the state of Israel is NOT their country and never was. There never was a 'Palestinian' country or state.
Click to expand...
Hmmm. See below

The previous 'country' in the area was the Ottoman Empire. After the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in WW1 the League of Nations broke up the Ottoman Empire into about seven independent states. The League didn't think that some of the locals were 'civilised' enough to run their own countries so France and the UK were mandated to look after the states that later became Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Israel and Jordan.
Click to expand...
True

After WW2 the UN dissolved the UK mandate and established Israel.
Click to expand...
Sort of. The UN mandated separate Jewish and Palestinian states, with Jerusalem under international administration.

There was supposed to be a 'Palestinian Arab State' in the area that is more or less the current West Bank but the territory was annexed by Jordan when it invaded Israel in 1947.
Click to expand...
No, not "more or less the current West Bank." Considerably more than that, but the nascent Israeli state expanded into the area earmarked for the Palestinian state and expelled the population and "legally" confiscated their property. Yes, Jordan annexed the remainder of the West Bank (and Egypt annexed Jaza)

You say: 'I am not taking any sides'. I think you must. There is a moral obligation on all who believe in freedom and democracy to support democratic Israel which is under attack from Islamic despotism, terrorism, military dictatorships, medieval theocracies, etc. Israel has been under attack from the surrounding arab states, all various shades of totalitarianism, dictatorship or despotism, since its foundation. With the exception of Jordan and Egypt all the surrounding arab states have not revoked their declarations of war, which have been in place since its foundation, against Israel. It is Israel that is under attack, it is the innocent party, the victim - not the arabs. Observers comments are ludicrous. There is no comparison between Northern Ireland - a bean fight between two European Christian cults - and Israel where democratic Western Jews are under attack from terrorists, many of which - Hamas, Al Aqusa martyrs brigade, etc. - state that their objective is the destruction of the state of Israel. Observer says: 'Get US agreement that all aid to Israel is dependent on adherence to basic human rights principles.' Would you ever get real? Israel has an independent supreme court, democracy, a free press, free universities, free political parties, private property, the rule of law, free enterprise, etc. The country is based on Western values including respect for human rights. None of the surrounding arab totalitarian states have any of these. Of course, there is a human rights deficit in the Middle East but it is in the arab states not in Israel.
Click to expand...

Ho hum....! Not quite the full story. Israel is of course far more democratic and respecting of human rights than any of its neighbours. Except towards the Palestinians. The Israeli supreme court has decreed that torture is permissable. The IDF regularly violates the right to life in the Occupied Territories. And don't forget its wholesale destruction of property. And its continued refusal of "right of return" to those whose homes and land were taken in 1948.

And yes, there is plenty of fault on the other side too. Perhaps even more fault. And yes, much of it IS fuelled by medieval theocratic Islamic militarism, military dictatorships, corrupt ruling regimes etc etc. But that does not give the Israelis carte blanche to do as they wish.
 
current goings on

Good points Observer and the voice of reason midst this cacophony of maddening voices too. I sometimes enter into these discussions and I have been watching the present conundrum that Piggy has faced, dogged as he is at every angle by all those nameless names (much like myself I might add). While I don't always agree with everything he has to say, he does at least argue well and sticks to reasonable assumptions and opinions. Contrary to some views he rarely strays into extremist territories and that includes leftist ideals. I think he has always put forward views that are based on human dignity over political or religious idealism. I must say I'm quite saddened at some of the opposition he's faced recently from one AAM poster. It looks, by all accounts, to be based on some personal relationship rather than opinion. Lest we lose sight of why we come here in the first place, it's because we wish to explore subject matter and perhaps discover more about others point s of view. In particular, I take note of the recent debate on immigrants in this country. I'm afraid I'd have to acquiesce that there was indeed some under handed remarks made about religious leaders, something which only Piggy pointed out. I would not go so far as to say I always agree with his views. I sometimes disagree with his views on world politics. But at the very least, he argues those points well. That's far more than can be said for this boil on his side. Stand up and be counted man. Debate your point and stop posting in fear all the time. For fear it is that makes you denigrate others in the name of whatever it is you're fighting against. Your own demons no doubt.
 
Middle East

Going slightly off key. Todays Sunday Times has an article on Iran and their pursuit of nuclear technology.
The article tries to be objective but is nevertheless inflamatory. Everyone knows Isreal has nuclear warheads, and yet we are supposed to be worried that an arab country might obtain them. I also think the good ole us of a turns a very convenient blind eye to this one sided arrangement. In Iceland Gorby and Regan almost signed off on total destruction of nukes. Would Israel have destroyed theirs too?
 
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