Crasse incompetants

Lak

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Looking forward to starting out on Monday studying for a degree in Construction Management, like many, I am a construction worker affected by the downturn, but rather than wallow in self pity like so many I know, or resign myself to years on the dole, for those that are lucky enough to receive it, I decided to hopefully ride out the recession by becoming a mature student.

My gripe is the breathtaking level of utter incompetance encountered whilst dealing with the various officials that we have met along the way.

I say "we" as my wife has pretty much done all the groundwork, mainly because in her line of work she does actually know the system and the way it works, working as she does with the long tem unemployed.

Therefore with much agonising we have overcome the hurdles in front of us culminating in Mondays first day back at school!

At almost every turn those officials dealt with had absolutely no concept of the rules and regulations that are applicable to their own individual departments.

I was astonished for example dealing with one vile official who was, and has, a reputation for being rude arrogant and aloof (and that's being kind) who was dismissing our application outright as he was oblivious to the "rule" in question, until my wife had to point out their official policy outlined in their own website, "thirty years in the job" as he kept pointing out did not furnish him with the most basic workings of an everday undertaking that affect hundreds of applications that must fall upon his desk every month.

This same scenario was encounterd and overcome several times and we still have one jobsworth to deal with who is insistant that back to education IS a means tested payment when it simply is not.

My point is, how many thousands if not tens of thousands of people around the country are being rejected out of hand for assistance when those that deal with any applications do not have the relevant knowledge of what entitlements are legitimate and those that they "think" to their own mind are not official policy.

From day one, sitting opposite an official who had to be shown three or four times how to sub divide a yearly income, it has been a head banging battle.

That first day we would have left that office had we not known better beaten at the first hurdle and I have no doubt whatsoever tens of thousands of individuals are beaten before they even start with such scandalous incompetance.

From bitter experience it is not a good idea to make those with who you deal with aware that you know the rules and regulations inside out, it does you no favours to tell someone how to do their jobs as they resent it immensely and go to great lengths to hinder your progress.

Just how many families are hindered in this way on a multitude of scenarios by the inept officialdom beggars belief...and believe me if my experience is any kind of barometer it is often on the most basic of criterea that any person in a place of authority should be abjectly ashamed not to be aware of as the very fundementals of their occupation.

When it affects people in such a life affirming manner it is truly shocking.
 
Well done for pushing ahead with your studies and keep this up no matter what - there is a whole world out there to conquer beyond Europe and America.

Don't confuse incompetence with an ability refined over the years designed to ensure that only a limited number of those seeking their entitlements actually get them.

Thankfully many of my own experiences have been positive, but there is a current pot boiler I cannot comment on yet which centres on eligibility for supported post graduate studies which is a beaut.

ONQ.
 
It's difficult to make any kind of serious assessment of your claims of incompetence without more details. Regardless, all public bodies have internal and external complaints procedures, with external 3rd parties such as the Ombudsman and the Equality Tribunal playing their roles.
 


I appreciate this point, but I am reluctant to go into personal details you understand.

Suffice to say the scenarios I encountered would be ones replicated country wide on an everyday basis countless times.

I do hope my experiences are not indicative of the general practice and I was simply unfortunate in my encounters, (to redress the balance I also met some very helpfull and motivated individuals.)

However, when you have to show an adjudicating officer of thirty years standing how to calculate an application for job seekers in his own office, that would under his own devises have been instantly dismissed without second thought, it is very worrying. His embarrased protestations about them constantly changing the website! and this must be a new thing! held no sway with me.

My thoughts are how many MANY people had been previously told that they are entitled to nothing by this man in a position of authority simply because he was oblivious to his own policy and the mechanics of his job, compounding the misery of people who are desperate and in dire straits.

This above issue is only one of several instances.

Thanks ONQ for your support, it's appreciated.

[mod edit] OT discussion moved here: Construction Studies for mature student - a wise decision?
 
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So why not make a formal complaint to his Dept?
 
So why not make a formal complaint to his Dept?

Will it change anything?
There is a generally held view that public servants don't get sacked for not being able to do their job properly and so aren't too worried if they can't do their job properly.
I hope you can correct that generally held view with something more than some talk about additional training.
 
Will it change anything?
There is a generally held view that public servants don't get sacked for not being able to do their job properly and so aren't too worried if they can't do their job properly.

It's not a view at all, it's fact! Exceptionally hard to get a public sector worker sacked for incompetence. Managers wont dare for fear of unions. The best a dept can hope for is for the person to be moved on, to cause havoc someplace else...
 
I hope you can correct that generally held view with something more than some talk about additional training.

Where did that comment come from?

Are you pre-judging the likely defense of the incompetent in question - "I'll send him for some re-training"?
If so, I have to agree, because I have been faced with some incredible jobsworths in my time who are dysfunctional.
Retraining will not overcome an almost pathological reliance on supervisors once a standard question is not being asked.

ONQ.
 
As a former fairly junior civil servant I can reveal (obvious to most, but not heeded by many) remember one thing the front-line junior civil servant is charged with one thing and that is to say "No" as often as possible. It comes with the territory. Remember, there is always a second process in which your case can be reheard and the real decision made.

Whether you deal on the telephone or on a personal visit always get the name of the person with whom you are dealing. Dont engage in clap-trap because civil servants are masters of dealing with cynics usually in their own inimitible way. Dont get involved in heated debate either. Be calm, objective, non judgemental and friendly.Take notes if necessary. And remember the person with whom you are dealing with is human also.

You will get the occasional plonker, of course. You always have the option with dealing with somebody else and dont be afraid to do so.
 
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It's not a view at all, it's fact! Exceptionally hard to get a public sector worker sacked for incompetence. Managers wont dare for fear of unions. The best a dept can hope for is for the person to be moved on, to cause havoc someplace else...

You're about 20 years out of date.
 
. Dont engage in clap-trap because civil servants are masters of dealing with cynics usually in their own inimitible way.

My way around this is to pretend I'm the idiot when faced with a real plonker and try and get what I want that way. If that fails I go down the 'in writing' mode. They take you seriously when it's in writing.

It took me 6 months to get a tax refund from the UK and 2 years to get a pension from a European country for a relation living in Ireland. But perseverance paid off. But it can be a struggle.
 
You're about 20 years out of date.

Ah will you give it up. I worked for 2 councils and a govt dept for many years. I left, foolishly some say, around 2006. I witnessed utter incompetence and neglect of duty but I never saw one person sacked. I remember a manager that got a useless employee promoted so that he would have to leave their section. It was funny at the time.
 

I am a civil servant and have worked in the general area described above and I have to say, there is one particular Dept. who are absolutely useless at familiarising themselves with the rules and conditions of various schemes run by other Depts. and constantly give out inaccurate and misleading information which is really frustrating for the public and also for other Civil Servants who actually do know what they're talking about. Unfortunately, this Dept is often the first port of call for many people and I really do sympathise with you.
 
Reminds me of my student college grant

Apply in July or August and because my Dad is a farmer a full set of accounts was needed

If you were lucky you'd get it by December, generally by January.


The local VEC were useless
If it's not done already there should be one national body dealing with grants and not thirty plus VEC's who are slow and don't work with each other

And then for the degree course we didn't go to the VEC but to the another organization in the local authority, have forgotten the name.
I do remember the VEC dealt with certs and diplomas but not degrees

So much duplication out there
 
Just wanted to add my own personal experience. I did a post grad course a year or so ago after being made redundant and thought I may as well apply for a grant and the fees to be paid. Due to my own and Mrs PH's wages from the previous year I was refused. To be perfectly honest what I did next was a very cheeky move but I wrote a letter basically saying 'why assess my current financial status based on last years earnings' and argued the point that it was the coming twelve months on which I should be assessed. I heard nothing for a few months and the next thing I knew I had full grant and maximum payment towards fees.
 
Just to add my own recent experiences of having to deal with officials in a college grant section who have next to no knowledge of the basic tenements of a P&L a/c despite this being a very basic requirement of their job.

I mean, if someone is employed to make decisions on whether someone gets a grant or not based on figures on their parent's P&L a/c, you would think that the department could employ someone who knows something about it.
 
Today's fun and games while registering was to submit my VEC letter of confirmation, it clearly stated 100% registration fee (paid) but oddly 50% student contribution.
The college then insisted I had only half the registration fee paid.....a trip down to the VEC confirmed the full fee had been met, quite why it was worded in such a way baffled me, what the letter "suggested" was not what it meant.
I asked for a letter from the VEC confirming to that effect, their reply was that IS your letter of confirmation...a generic letter of confirmation apparently that neither I nor anyone at the college could make head nor tail of.
Now the next battle is the back to education payments which the official is insistant on pain of death that it is a means tested payment. It is not but she will not accept this.
Is there a Masters degree in dealing with incompetant bufoons because I think I have earned a distinction in this field this past few weeks !