Cowen's comments today

[bamboozle]

Speaking at an international business summit in Dublin, Brian Cowen told his audience that everybody must play a part to restore confidence in the domestic economy.
It is important to tell the world that Ireland is still open for business despite a 30 per cent slide in tax revenue and the collapse of the property market, the Taoiseach said.
He continued: “Everybody must contribute to get us back to where we want to be. At the end of the day, if everybody stands up and says ‘not me, mate’ don’t be surprised that we don’t get there quicker than we should.”
Mr Cowen said that 10 per cent of the salaries of every teacher, nurse and doctor was currently paid for by borrowings.

 

[daithi]

maybe he should put his money where his mouth is:
1. Abolish the 3 extra junior ministries
2. Abolish the Senate alotgether
3. Take up fgs proposal to give any public sector worker on >50k a pay freeze (before anyone starts, I am one of these people, and would have absolutely no problem with a pay freeze if it ensures decent health and education in this country- and no, Im not a blueshirt!)
4.Fire Mary Harney and Brendan Drumm and their various do-nothing acolytes.

daithi

 

[boris]

maybe he should put his money where his mouth is:
1. Abolish the 3 extra junior ministries
2. Abolish the Senate alotgether
3. Take up fgs proposal to give any public sector worker on >50k a pay freeze (before anyone starts, I am one of these people, and would have absolutely no problem with a pay freeze if it ensures decent health and education in this country- and no, Im not a blueshirt!)
4.Fire Mary Harney and Brendan Drumm and their various do-nothing acolytes.

daithi

I am a public servant and would agree as well. Lets not hit the lower paid in the public/civil service.

I would also think that the whole HSE organisation chart should be reviewed urgently. From what I have heard (from those in the HSE) the creation of the HSE allowed a whole new line of management to develop which was never there before and are certainly not needed. Surely an absolutely waste of money and holds up efficency (jobs for the boys would be a lot of it)

 

[z109]

I am not a public servant, but I am well paid and I am astonished at how unbalanced and, quite frankly, wimpy the budget was.

Anyway, the bit in his speech that interested me was the bit about it being the greatest economic crisis for 100 years. Really Mr. Cowen? Since 1908? You think the panic of 2008-???? is worse than the panic of 1929-33 and the ensuing depression?

Now, he may well be right, but I think that even a large part of the tin-foil brigade (of which I occasionally count myself when particularly spooked by events) accept that we might get past this one with just a nasty and long-lasting recession. Who would have thought that our Taoiseach was a gold, guns and beans man...

 

[mathepac]

...
4.Fire Mary Harney and Brendan Drumm and their various do-nothing acolytes ...

I couldn't argue with this proposal. Its become very clear that simply throwing more money and extra layers onto the top of the organisation has done nothing for the clients of the HSE - those people who need access to health services, particularly in hospitals. All that has happened is that the Minister and DOHC officials are now out of the firing-line and can engage in more hand-wringing about their powerlessness.

I like the model where more services are centered on GP practices in order to speed up access and improve quality delivery.

 

[boris]

Anyway, the bit in his speech that interested me was the bit about it being the greatest economic crisis for 100 years. Really Mr. Cowen? Since 1908? You think the panic of 2008-???? is worse than the panic of 1929-33 and the ensuing depression?

Actually he could be basing his comment on history. I remember reading lately about some form of a banking crisis occuring from 1907 to 1909. Still the Wall St. crash was far more serious than that crisis.

 

[z109]

Actually he could be basing his comment on history. I remember reading lately about some form of a banking crisis occuring from 1907 to 1909. Still the Wall St. crash was far more serious than that crisis.

Yeah, the panic of 1907. But that was more like 1987 - a crash in the stockmarket, but the real economy less affected. Note, there was also a depression in 1920-21 following the gearing down of war production.

 

[Sunny]

I think I am actually getting angrier and angier at the politicians as the days pass. These comments really annoyed me. I don't need Brian Cowan, Willie O Dea or any other politican to tell me how bad things are. Unlike the politicians and especially the ministers who seem to exist in some sort of surreal environment, I and the majority of the country work in the real world. I work for a small foreign owned investment bank that is been battered by the credit crisis. At this stage I just want to get through Christmas with a job. I have friends who worked in construction and now can't find a job so are leaving the country. My girlfriend has been made redundant twice in the last 16 months. I own an apartment that is dropping in value every day. I work 12 hour days with no overtime. I am one of the sensible people who tried to do the right thing and make high pension contributions from my mid 20's. Looking at my last pension statement, I wish I hadn't bothered. If I do have a job in January, I will not be getting a pay increase of any description (I got a 1.5% increase last year when inflation was over 4% so it will pretty much be a two year pay freeze) while at the same time facing increased taxes and cost of living expenses.

Thats the reality of what I and thousands of other people face. I don't mind paying my share and more in current climate to help us get over this crisis but I do mind that my Government is treating me like a fool. I wasn't angry about the fact that they wanted to remove the automatic right to a medical card for over 70's or increase class sizes by one pupil. I was angry because these were the first areas that they hit along with increasing taxes without looking elsewhere for savings. I reckon a junior cert ecnomics student could knock €2 billion off government spending without hitting frontline services. We have reverted back to the 1980's with that last budget. It was written by civil servants for the benefit of civil servants.

So now I call on Brian Cowan and the rest of their cronies to do their 'patriotic duty' and make the tough decisions that every economist, academic, commentator and member of the public is asking for. Give us value for money in our public sector and when you have done that and if we are still up to our necks in it, then you will have my support in looking at the really tough options that might have to be made.

 

[bamboozle]

I think I am actually getting angrier and angier at the politicians as the days pass. These comments really annoyed me. I don't need Brian Cowan, Willie O Dea or any other politican to tell me how bad things are. Unlike the politicians and especially the ministers who seem to exist in some sort of surreal environment, I and the majority of the country work in the real world. I work for a small foreign owned investment bank that is been battered by the credit crisis. At this stage I just want to get through Christmas with a job. I have friends who worked in construction and now can't find a job so are leaving the country. My girlfriend has been made redundant twice in the last 16 months. I own an apartment that is dropping in value every day. I work 12 hour days with no overtime. I am one of the sensible people who tried to do the right thing and make high pension contributions from my mid 20's. Looking at my last pension statement, I wish I hadn't bothered. If I do have a job in January, I will not be getting a pay increase of any description (I got a 1.5% increase last year when inflation was over 4% so it will pretty much be a two year pay freeze) while at the same time facing increased taxes and cost of living expenses.

Thats the reality of what I and thousands of other people face. I don't mind paying my share and more in current climate to help us get over this crisis but I do mind that my Government is treating me like a fool. I wasn't angry about the fact that they wanted to remove the automatic right to a medical card for over 70's or increase class sizes by one pupil. I was angry because these were the first areas that they hit along with increasing taxes without looking elsewhere for savings. I reckon a junior cert ecnomics student could knock €2 billion off government spending without hitting frontline services. We have reverted back to the 1980's with that last budget. It was written by civil servants for the benefit of civil servants.

So now I call on Brian Cowan and the rest of their cronies to do their 'patriotic duty' and make the tough decisions that every economist, academic, commentator and member of the public is asking for. Give us value for money in our public sector and when you have done that and if we are still up to our necks in it, then you will have my support in looking at the really tough options that might have to be made.

and comment of the week goes to Sunny! well said

Before the budget was announced, Alan Dukes was on RTE Radio One, he made some very clear statements.
in 2000 the Irish budget was 20 billion euro
in 2007 this figure had risen to 57 billion...19 billion of which was going to fund the public service.
Dukes said 2 things were immediately needed, firstly a large shedding of employees in the civil service and secondly he described the National Development Plan as a vanity that we cannot afford and all non essential plans should be scrapped - (metro springs to mind)

how the government can justify the money that has gone into FAS and Enterprise Ireland yet still try to hit the Over 70's for their medical cards is just appalling and just shows how myopic this government has been for the last 10 years...yet as a nation i think we're also guilty as we have repepatedly voted Fianna Fail back in. However finally i think the public tide has changed

 

[Sherman]

I think I am actually getting angrier and angier at the politicians as the days pass. These comments really annoyed me. I don't need Brian Cowan, Willie O Dea or any other politican to tell me how bad things are. Unlike the politicians and especially the ministers who seem to exist in some sort of surreal environment, I and the majority of the country work in the real world. I work for a small foreign owned investment bank that is been battered by the credit crisis. At this stage I just want to get through Christmas with a job. I have friends who worked in construction and now can't find a job so are leaving the country. My girlfriend has been made redundant twice in the last 16 months. I own an apartment that is dropping in value every day. I work 12 hour days with no overtime. I am one of the sensible people who tried to do the right thing and make high pension contributions from my mid 20's. Looking at my last pension statement, I wish I hadn't bothered. If I do have a job in January, I will not be getting a pay increase of any description (I got a 1.5% increase last year when inflation was over 4% so it will pretty much be a two year pay freeze) while at the same time facing increased taxes and cost of living expenses.

Thats the reality of what I and thousands of other people face. I don't mind paying my share and more in current climate to help us get over this crisis but I do mind that my Government is treating me like a fool. I wasn't angry about the fact that they wanted to remove the automatic right to a medical card for over 70's or increase class sizes by one pupil. I was angry because these were the first areas that they hit along with increasing taxes without looking elsewhere for savings. I reckon a junior cert ecnomics student could knock €2 billion off government spending without hitting frontline services. We have reverted back to the 1980's with that last budget. It was written by civil servants for the benefit of civil servants.

So now I call on Brian Cowan and the rest of their cronies to do their 'patriotic duty' and make the tough decisions that every economist, academic, commentator and member of the public is asking for. Give us value for money in our public sector and when you have done that and if we are still up to our necks in it, then you will have my support in looking at the really tough options that might have to be made.

Excellent post. The stunning lack of imagination in the budget has really shown the dearth of quality in our cabinet and top civil servants. Where are the TK Whitakers of the 21st century?

 

[elefantfresh]

I don't wish to appear as if i've completly lost the plot but why don't we just vote YES to Lisbon 2 and let europe govern us seeing as we obviously cant govern ourselves?

 

[Sunny]

I don't wish to appear as if i've completly lost the plot but why don't we just vote YES to Lisbon 2 and let europe govern us seeing as we obviously cant govern ourselves?

I was actually thinking about something like this as well. Not quiet along those lines though. What the last few years have shown is that politicians and civil servants are incapable of producing a budget without pandering to vested interests, protecting themselves and making politically popular decisions at the expense of the Country or future generations.

Is there a better way to do things? For example should something as important as the budget be constructed using a cross party mechanism as I am sure the opposition parties had some good ideas (and some bad ones!) that the Government would never put in because they wouldn't want the oppostion to get credit for them. Should there also be greater transparancy in the discussions behind the budget rather than hiding everything behind Cabinet confidentiality. As least then we can understand why certain decisions were made. All I know is that the last budget sucked and I think we can now see that the last few budgets were totally inadequate as well so something needs to change.

 

[Dreamerb]

"written by civil servants for the benefit of civil servants"?

This is an extraordinary statement and completely fails to understand the relationship between civil servants and the Government. Civil servants provide information, advice and recommendations. They are not, ultimately, responsible for the decisions of Government, which may or may not be in line with their advice and recommendations. By this I mean that while most civil servants do take pride in their work and do feel a sense of ownership over the areas delegated to them, the policy decisions are ultimately made by the relevant Minister and may often also require Government approval. Ministers very rarely simply rubber-stamp a proposal made by their civil servants; depending on what the issue is, it may be the subject of multiple briefings and meetings where the Minister will usually give direction on how s/he wants to proceed.

If you want to complain about the lack of vision in the Budget, that's fine (and I agree on many fronts) - but you don't know what recommendations were made and what was accepted or rejected by the Minister whose direct responsibility it is. Slating the civil service without having all that information is simply prejudiced, and also appears to absolve Ministers and the Government of any responsibility for their work.

"19 billion of which was going to fund the civil service."

Nope. I think you'll find that's the entire public service.

+1 on the pay freeze, though, as one who would be affected by it. I'd prefer to have seen the PRSI ceiling abolished too.

 

[z104]

I think the elephant in the room is the public service but to do the right thing might be as likely to be done as Turkey's voting for Christmas.

There must have been a thousand other ways to raise revenue in the budget but how naive were the government to think that taking money from the elderly and young would wash.

I don't believe an experienced government could have been that naive not to think through the political cost. So what was the motive?

 

[Sunny]

"written by civil servants for the benefit of civil servants"?

They are not, ultimately, responsible for the decisions of Government, which may or may not be in line with their advice and recommendations. By this I mean that while most civil servants do take pride in their work and do feel a sense of ownership over the areas delegated to them, the policy decisions are ultimately made by the relevant Minister and may often also require Government approval. Ministers very rarely simply rubber-stamp a proposal made by their civil servants; depending on what the issue is, it may be the subject of multiple briefings and meetings where the Minister will usually give direction on how s/he wants to proceed.

.

If as taxpayers we are paying secretary generals in the Civil Service over €200,000 they can't simply wash their hands of responsiblity by saying it is all the Governments decison/fault like they did over the nursing home charges. Nobody expects a solicitor/politician like Brian Lenihan to have full grasp on all budget and economic matters so he relies heavily on his civil servants for advice and recommendations as he should do. The government might provide the general framework for the budget but do you really think it is the minister in every department who sits down and goes through the books in detail to see where money could be saved and more wisely spent. And what civil servant is going to recommend that there should be job losses or pay freezes for themselves and their colleagues?

And by the way, this in now way absolves the Government who I hold completely responsible for the mess. They should have made the really tough decisions but bottled it.

 

[Guest124]

Greatest economic crisis for 100 years then why not cut back RTE broadcasting hour's to just prime time and save on street lighting if things are so bad. This guy has to go soon!

 

[Lollix]

Is there a better way to do things?

There is, and we get a chance to do it every few years. We decided to ignore all sanity and re-elect Bertie Ahern and Co last year; we really can't complain now if the wheels have come off that particular wagon.

We get the government we deserve. We decide that low standards and bungling are what we want, so that't what we get. Nobody to blame but ourselves.

 

[quarterfloun]

Why are the comments on this website not reflected in reality - ie virtually every poster says cut the civil service yet we are stuck with them. Perhaps this is because this is the askaboutmoney website and not one of the idiot bankers, developers and civil servants actually need to budget and look after their finances. As the gravy train is rolling to a halt maybe we will see more of these offenders looking for advice And as for the lemmings that vote FF cos DeValera was a great man........you deserve to lose your medical cards.