COVID 19 : the fallout

The mess our finances were in before it were though.
That was a decade ago, move on.
There’s a new crisis. Unemployment is at 17%, even higher than the last mess.
It’s gotta be fixed or we’re goosed.
 
That was a decade ago, move on.

What? You mean we had our national debt under control before COVID-19 kicked in?

Had we taken tough decisions to address issues like national debt while the economy was purring along, we'd be in a position to recover much more quickly from the current crisis.
 
No, I mean the economy was healthy up to a month ago and we’re better placed to survive this crisis then we were the last.
 
Early in the year it was reported we had a total of 255 ICU beds, on March 22nd it was reported that 173 of those were unoccupied.

Fair point though a snapshot in time figures are unhelpful at times given they do not take into account those who could benefit from ICU through cancellations (surgery waiting lists) and/or lack of key staff to run these units and other factors. If a report and clinical experts recommend increasing icu beds with evidenced based reports I'll side with them.
 
No, I mean the economy was healthy up to a month ago and we’re better placed to survive this crisis then we were the last.
No it wasn't. We were riding a wave of Corporation Tax receipts which is as unsustainable as the wave of taxes we got from the property bubble. Our national debt was increasing, our tax base was far to narrow and despite those tax receipts and the massive amounts of money we spend on it our healthcare system was rubbish. Basically we were continuing to mortgage our children's future to live beyond our means today. That means that there was no spare capacity to deal with this crisis.
 
Never a borrower or a lender be?
I can think of a few more apt Shakespearean quotes for our current situation, even another one from Hamlet; Foul deeds will rise, Though all the earth overwhelm them, to men's eyes. (not sure if that's quite correct).
 
Fair point though a snapshot in time figures are unhelpful at times given they do not take into account those who could benefit from ICU through cancellations (surgery waiting lists) and/or lack of key staff to run these units and other factors. If a report and clinical experts recommend increasing icu beds with evidenced based reports I'll side with them.

I got lucky with the reports and that week better supporting my argument, I know the situation is a lot different the vast majority of the time. I guess my point is we've known for years that we spend way more on health than many other countries, yet the system is still creaking and outcomes for the patients doesn't reflect that spend.

Despite multiple attempts to improve, we just seem to spend more and more, and end up getting less. Until the focus switches from 'we need X more of Y resource', to 'we need to get better value for money', the easy political fix will continue to be throwing more money at the problem, and that never fixes it.
 
I would imagine when we get through this there will be a massive financial stimulus package worth trillions put in place by the eu and divided out to each member country. the usa will be doing likewise id say.
 
I would imagine when we get through this there will be a massive financial stimulus package worth trillions put in place by the eu and divided out to each member country. the usa will be doing likewise id say.
Yep, same old same old; spending wealth which hasn't been created yet.
 
I got lucky with the reports and that week better supporting my argument, I know the situation is a lot different the vast majority of the time. I guess my point is we've known for years that we spend way more on health than many other countries, yet the system is still creaking and outcomes for the patients doesn't reflect that spend.

Despite multiple attempts to improve, we just seem to spend more and more, and end up getting less. Until the focus switches from 'we need X more of Y resource', to 'we need to get better value for money', the easy political fix will continue to be throwing more money at the problem, and that never fixes it.
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The HSE is top heavy, Too many people in office wear trying to pass the day while the front line staff are drained , That was before this crisis , If any government had the courage to admit that the health service is over staffed regarding all day e- mailers and short staffed on the front line or as it is now considered the last line of defense now is the time to do it and act on it , I speak from personal experience , Stay home , Stay safe .
 
The HSE is top heavy, Too many people in office wear trying to pass the day while the front line staff are drained , That was before this crisis , If any government had the courage to admit that the health service is over staffed regarding all day e- mailers and short staffed on the front line or as it is now considered the last line of defense now is the time to do it and act on it , I speak from personal experience , Stay home , Stay safe .
That's the usual narrative but 35% of the people who work for the HSE are nurses and a good percentage of the decision makers are doctors. More importantly many of these people are decision blockers.
Nurses and doctors who resist standardisation of contracts, payroll and work practices can't them moan about the number of managers and clerical staff required to administer the inefficient and bloated system they insist isn't reformed.
The HSE is everyone who works in it. That includes the so called front line staff. If they are not proactively working to be part of the solution (without looking for a pay rise for every little change) then they are part of the problem and, collectively, they have blood on their hands.
There's another thread in Letting off Steam about the moral difference between killing someone and letting someone die. That applies here to everyone in the HSE who resists reform and so is part of the waste which causes people to die.
 
The point is the HSE is overstaffed at an admin /office level, This is a fact, Two people told me just this week they were struggling to find something to do , Both on approx 30,000 euro per annum, That is just two people that I know of in one hospital The waste is rampant, If you work in the system and you can not see it thats fine but if the nurses can see it and by that I mean the people that would dealing with you and me if god forbid we were to get sick thats speaks volumes . Are you still comfortable with your statement regarding a pay rise for for every little change , The changes are beyond anything ever expected and everyone still turns up for work , My wife can not get the ppe required but will still get up at the dawn and go back in to face it day in day out , I hope you are staying safe and well .
 
The point is the HSE is overstaffed at an admin /office level, This is a fact, Two people told me just this week they were struggling to find something to do , Both on approx 30,000 euro per annum, That is just two people that I know of in one hospital The waste is rampant, If you work in the system and you can not see it thats fine but if the nurses can see it and by that I mean the people that would dealing with you and me if god forbid we were to get sick thats speaks volumes . Are you still comfortable with your statement regarding a pay rise for for every little change , The changes are beyond anything ever expected and everyone still turns up for work , My wife can not get the ppe required but will still get up at the dawn and go back in to face it day in day out , I hope you are staying safe and well .
The reason that the HSE is overstaffed at an admin/office level is because reforms which would streamline clerical functions, reduce admin and reduce headcount are resisted by the "front line" people who are complaining about overstaffing.
What is happening now is welcome but the whole HSE is creaking because of the gross structural inefficiencies within it. That is making everyone's job harder. This is like someone who sat on their ass for 20 years eating crisps and fried chicken and watching daytime TV suddenly having to run a marathon; the mind is now willing but 20 years of doing anything they can to avoid doing things properly means they have to drag their fat ass around behind them.
 
The reason that the HSE is overstaffed at an admin/office level is because reforms which would streamline clerical functions, reduce admin and reduce headcount are resisted by the "front line" people who are complaining about overstaffing.
I wonder? Undoubtedly, the lack of reform at front line level does contribute somewhat. But I would suggest the vast bulk of overstaffing at admin level is not directly related to the frontline stuff. Look at it this way: if the frontline workers agreed immediately to every reform ever suggested, do you seriously think the back office admin would just melt away? No chance! They would just find another source of "makework" to pretend to fill the time.
 
I wonder? Undoubtedly, the lack of reform at front line level does contribute somewhat. But I would suggest the vast bulk of overstaffing at admin level is not directly related to the frontline stuff. Look at it this way: if the frontline workers agreed immediately to every reform ever suggested, do you seriously think the back office admin would just melt away? No chance! They would just find another source of "makework" to pretend to fill the time.
Natural wastage over a 5 year period or so would account for most of the excess staff if functions were streamlined. Of course inefficient work practices at medical and nursing levels also contribute to gross waste. The reason US Multinationals in the IT, medical and electronics sectors are as successful as they are is because they constantly seek to reduce waste and improve processes. If you walk around any such plant in Ireland and do it again 5 years later you'll see changes to production and technology in their manufacturing process but also big changed to their engineering, administration and management processes. Business model excellence is what makes businesses great. McDonalds are as successful as they are not because they sell the best burgers (they certainly don't) but because they have the best business processes.
 
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