Corbyn suspended

[cremeegg]

We love to comment on US politics here, but I think he suspension of Corbyn by the British Labour party tells us something very significant about English politics.

His suspension itself is perhaps only a small thing, but what it tells us about Starmer's leadership of the party is hugely significant. Starmer was supposed to be the adult in the room, but this suspension is a very ominous sign.

Any organisation which feels it must make a demon of its past leaders is in a poor position. First Tony Blair was a war criminal, not Jeremy Corbyn is an anti-semite. That their opponents would seek to blacken them like this is one thing but for their own party to do so is ridiculous.

Blairs actions in the Middle East were of global significance and a disaster which will last generations, personally I think he acted out of naivety and a desire to leave his mark on the world, despite all the briefings and intelligence available to him, his understanding of the situation was less than many a schoolchild.

Corbyns actions or inactions were hardly on that scale. It seems to me that the reason given for his suspension, that he thought the issue of anti-semitism in the Labour party was over stated, and that it was used by its enemies against the party, is preposterous. He may be right or wrong in either of these opinions, but just thinking and saying these things was the reason given for his suspension.

On the question of the matter of anti-semitism being used against the Labour Party by its enemies, well if it wasnt, then I wonder why.

 

[mathepac]

but just thinking and saying these things was the reason given for his suspension.

The thought police out in force in the UK?

 

[odyssey06]

But it's been like this since the late 70s with the Labour Party at least...
Look at the early 80s... Healey v Benn. History repeating itself.

Corbyn & his allies are of the ilk that wouldn't hesitate to use the rulebook to suspend those he disagreed with.
Absolute zero sympathy for his blend of incompetence and unbending ideology.

For the Conservatives the fault line has been over Europe for the corresponding period.
Under a different electorial system there would have been splits into about 3-4 equal parties.

 

[WolfeTone]

Jeremy Corbyn is an anti-semite.

Important to note that Corbyn has not been suspended for being anti-semitic. He was suspended for comments he made about the EHRC report, which was to critcise its findings.

Corbyn should have apologised for any hurt caused to Jewish members, and the Jewish community at large, for the failings of the Labour Party in addressing anti-semitism within the Labour Party under his leadership.
He is wholly correct however in stating that the issue was dramatically overstated.
The EHR investigated a sample of 70 complaints. Of these, most related to social media incidents of 'Likes', retweets and shares of commentary or memes that alluded to anti-semitism eg Rothschild global banking conspiracy etc, some were critical of Israeli policy against Palestine which may be construed as anti-semitism but could just be criticism of Israel. 12 were found to have breached the standards of Equality Acts. Of these 12 breaches, 10 related to the failure to address concerns, or complaints raised of alleged anti-semitism.


Notwithstanding that a single incident of anti-semitism is one too many, the subsequent embroiling of the whole Labour Party and Corbyns leadership was part of a deliberate and orchestrated coup to topple Corbyn and restore party authority into the Blairite wing of the party. Largely represented by members of HoC who were engaged in the failed attempt to topple Corbyn in 2017.

There is significant evidence that shows that Corbyn did instruct his national executive on many occasions to address the complaints surrounding anti-semitism. The executive, in the control of MPs such as Iain McNicol who was part of the move to try prevent Corbyn contesting the leadership, deliberately sat on their hands, delaying, obstructing and hindering any meaningful attempts to address matters as per Corbyns instructions.

Under his leadership, these failings would come to the fore and ultimately the axe would fall on him.
Corbyn was out of his depth as leader of the Labour Party. He was unable to hold any control or leverage over his enemies within the parliamentary party, and he was unable to capitalise of the wave of spontaneous enthusiasm from members of the public that swept across the UK supporting his leadership.

Oh! Jeremy Corbyn!

I knew little of Corbyn before he became leader of the UK Labour Party, but since then I've learnt that he is one the most genuine and committed politicians to the cause of social justice, peace and prosperity for all.
Regardless of what anyone thinks of his politics, he has committed his political life to providing a voice for the marginalised, stigmatised, and disenfranchised.
He has not an anti-semitic bone in his body, and this whole episode has left sour stain on the Labour Party.
Corbyn is responsible for his own failings as party leader. But I'm in no doubt who is responsible for this dire episode. They have returned control to the Blairite wing of the parliamentary party, but in doing so they were willing to allow the reputation of Labour be dragged through the mud to regain and re-assert their authority.
The anger bubbling under the Labour Party after this suspension will be felt for a long time.

 

[odyssey06]

Social justice in the abstract.
But when it comes to actual anti-semitism under his own watch, where was Corbyn?
Not that he was frustrated in his sincere committed efforts by traitors within Labour to root out anti-semitism in his own organisation - which magically seemed to surge when he was leader... Nope. Even now, as far as he is concerned, it's a mountain out of a molehill.
He didn't have the moral backbone to confront it or the political nous to see how it was hurting him in middle England.
The people he enabled to make their voices heard were hate mongers. They cared nothing for the history of the Labour people or its reputation.

In his mind, Israel and Jews aren't worthy of the same consideration as those in need of his help in his quixotic quest for social justice.
With that world view of course you have a blind spot when it comes to anti-semitism.

The sour stain on the Labour party is Jeremy Cobyn and the hate he allowed to fester within its ranks from his own allies.

 

[odyssey06]

The EHRC found that the leader's office directly interfered in complaints relating to anti-Semitism.

The first breach was of political interference by the leader's office - led, at the time, by Jeremy Corbyn - when dealing with complaints of anti-Semitism.
The investigation found evidence of 23 instances of "inappropriate involvement" by Mr Corbyn's office out of the 70 files it looked at.
This included staff influencing decisions on suspensions or whether to investigate a claim.
One incident reportedly saw the party leader's staff advising a complaint against Mr Corbyn himself - for allegedly supporting an anti-Semitic mural - should be dismissed.

What does the Labour anti-Semitism report say?

What were the main points in the Equality and Human Rights Commission's investigation?

www.bbc.com

 

[WolfeTone]

This is the smear campaign...

But when it comes to actual anti-semitism under his own watch, where was Corbyn?

He didn't have the moral backbone to confront it

In his mind, Israel and Jews aren't worthy of the same consideration as those in need of his help in his quixotic quest for social justice.

September 2015

- Corbyn elected leader of Labour Party

April 2016

- Corbyn emails then General Secretary Iain McNicol about anti-semitic tweets asking the party to take action.
- Further related emails from Corbyn and John McDonnell make proposals to tackle anti-semitism including efficient proposals, detailed guidance on anti-semitism.
- Corbyn appoints Shami Chakrabarti to inquire into the extent of antisemitism or other forms of racism in the Labour Party,

June 2016

- Chakrabarti publishes report acknowledging occasionally toxic atmosphere but that the party is not overrun by antisemitism or other forms of racism.
- Corbyns speech after that report, speaking in detail of antisemitic tropes prevalent within Labour.

[broken link removed]

- Jewish Labour Movement (JLM) give a strong endorsement of the report.
- Conference 2016, Corbyn "Everyone must fight against prejudice and hatred of Jewish people with every breath"

December 2016

- Labour adopts IHRA Working Definition of Antisemitism with Corbyns support.

September 2017

- Chakrabarti and JLM write rule change explicitly outlawing antisemitism and all forms of prejudice within Labour. The law is backed by Corbyn and passed at 2017 conference.
"Anyone using antisemitic language is completely at odds with the beliefs of this party"


February 2018

- Corbyn writes to McNicol "it is clear that the current processes are far too slow... no procedural changes have been brought forward by party staff"

- Corbyn relays to McNicol concerns of JLM that Labour appears not to take anti-semitism seriously enough.

March 2018

- Corbyn apologises for hurt and pain caused to Jewish community.

April 2018

- Corbyn directs new General Secretary Jennie Formby, to make tackling antisemitism her first priority.

- Corbyn opinion piece on tackling antisemitism

August 2018

- Corbyn issues online video to all party members "anyone who denys this [antisemitism] has surfaced in our party is contributing to the problem.

September 2018

- Corbyn speaks at Conference about hurt and pain suffered by Jewish members. Formby details changes in processes made in her first month's in charge.

January 2019

- Corbyn releases video to all members raising awareness of holocaust denial, conspiracy theories and consequences of such rhetoric.

July 2019

- Corbyn launches "No place for Anti-semitism" website.
- Corbyn introduces rule changes for rapid expulsion for clear-cut cases of antisemitism and other forms of discrimination. Rule change is passed at Conference.

Details of significant changes in procedure and processes were detailed by Jennie Formby.
Pre-2018 with McNicol as GS, just 28 complaint cases were taken through to National Executive Committee with 1 expulsion.

From 2018-2020 with Formby as GS, there 274 cases taken through to NEC with 45 expulsions.

 

[WolfeTone]

The investigation found evidence of 23 instances of "inappropriate involvement" by Mr Corbyn's office out of the 70 files it looked at.

This relates to staff of the Leader of The Opposition office. There was no direct instruction or interference from Corbyn himself. It primarily involves correspondence coming from the LOTO office to the General Legal Unit with regard to cases considered of a politically sensitive nature. Labour Party rules, as with most political parties, have discretion in disciplinary cases to keep abreast of developments. This is common sense.
They shouldn't however be involved, or interfere, in the actual disciplinary rulings.
In some cases staff of the LOTO were identified as directing suspensions against some members.

 

[WolfeTone]

Keir Stamer does not think Corbyn is antisemitic

to root out anti-semitism in his own organisation - which magically seemed to surge when he was leader.

Deputy leader Rayner accepts Corbyns statement of small number of party members involved in antisemitism

 

[PMU]

Blairs actions in the Middle East were of global significance and a disaster which will last generations, personally I think he acted out of naivety and a desire to leave his mark on the world, despite all the briefings and intelligence available to him, his understanding of the situation was less than many a schoolchild.

That's a bit harsh on the greatest (and only!) Labour PM in recent history.

Blair will of course be remembered as the UK PM who finished the work started by Gladstone and, with Clinton and Ahearn, brought peace to Northern Ireland. Furthermore, he (with Clinton) persuaded NATO to bomb Serbia in 1999 to stop ethnic cleansing in Kosovo and Bosnia (while the EU stood aside); sent UK troops to Sierra Leone to prevent a civil war; and participated in the US attack against Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. All clearly ethically justified.

Since the 1974 Wilson/Callaghan Labour victory, the UK election results for Labour have been Lose X 4; Blair X 3; Lose X 4. So if Labour wants to win power again, they should be looking for a Blair clone, not a walking embarrassment like Corbyn.

 

[odyssey06]

I don't think Corbyn is an anti-semite, I don't even think he is 'dog whistling'. I think he has a tin ear when it comes the issue, especially when you consider that his position and rhetoric on Israel is one that attracts the support of anti-semites to the Labour Party and into its membership.

Excerpts from the EHRC report show that whatever measures Corbyn had taken did not go nearly far enough:
The investigation was prompted by growing public concern about antisemitism in the Labour Party and followed official complaints received by us. Despite this concern and an internal inquiry led by Baroness Chakrabarti in 2016, our investigation found significant failings in the way the Labour Party has handled antisemitism complaints over the last four years...
This reflects a culture that is at odds with the Labour Party’s commitment to zero tolerance of antisemitism. The Party has shown an ability to act decisively when it wants to, through the introduction of a bespoke process to deal with sexual harassment complaints...
Although some improvements have been made to the process for dealing with antisemitism complaints, it is hard not to conclude that antisemitism within the Labour Party could have been tackled more effectively if the leadership had chosen to do so.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/investigation-into-antisemitism-in-the-labour-party.pdf

There is a perception, based on real incidents, that Corbyn's Labour Party was a cold house for Jewish members. Hundreds of members expelled specifically for anti-semitism, including such a high profile figure as Ken Livingstone.

Keir Starmer said: "If, after all the pain, all the grief, and all the evidence in this report, there are still those who think there's no problem with anti-semitism in the Labour party, that it’s all exaggerated, or a factional attack, then frankly you are part of the problem too and you should be nowhere near the Labour party either."

Mr Corbyn released a separate statement which conflicted with the ECHR findings, alleging antisemitism during his leadership was a "dramatically overstated for political reasons".

Corbyn was and is part of the problem.

 

[WolfeTone]

I think he has a tin ear when it comes the issue

I find this hard to understand. There is summary above of his duration as leader that clearly shows that he was acutely aware of the issue from early on in his leadership.

especially when you consider that his position and rhetoric on Israel is one that attracts the support of anti-semites to the Labour Party and into its membership.

There is no doubt that criticism of Israeli policy and the Israeli State is often conflated with anti-semitism.
But in Corbyns case, he is quite explicit in distinguishing between the two. I'm not aware of his 'rhetoric' that could be construed as attracting anti-semites into the party.

our investigation found significant failings in the way the Labour Party has handled antisemitism complaints over the last four years...

This is basically the guts of the whole affair. The failure to handle antisemitism complaints rather than a party than was engulfed, or had a surge of antisemitics within its ranks.

The total number of complaints over the period reflects less than 0.03% of the total party membership. The complaints that the EHRC could plausibly attribute to the Labour Party as being legally responsible related to less than 0.01% of party members.

This is not a party that attracts antisemites. It is a party that failed to adequately deal with such complaints.

Hundreds of members expelled specifically for anti-semitism,

I am not aware of these expulsions. Do you have a link? My understanding is that there was less than 50 expulsions/suspensions.

 

[odyssey06]

I find this hard to understand. There is summary above of his duration as leader that clearly shows that he was acutely aware of the issue from early on in his leadership. There is no doubt that criticism of Israeli policy and the Israeli State is often conflated with anti-semitism.
But in Corbyns case, he is quite explicit in distinguishing between the two. I'm not aware of his 'rhetoric' that could be construed as attracting anti-semites into the party.

The leader of the Labour Party 2010-2015 was Jewish - Ed Miliband.
All of this has erupted since Corbyn became leader. I'm not saying Corbyn actively courted this kind of support but it's patently obvious his rhetoric attracts a certain audience.

The Labour Party has distanced itself from a series of pro-Jeremy Corbyn Facebook groups which contain anti-Semitic and racist comments.
The Sunday Times reported to have uncovered more than 2,000 messages in the groups, which numbered 400,000 members, including anti-Semitism and mysogyny, as well as threats of violence and Holocaust denial.

Labour distances itself from pro-Corbyn anti-Semitic Facebook groups

The Labour Party has distanced itself from a series of pro-Jeremy Corbyn Facebook groups which contain anti-Semitic and racist comments.

inews.co.uk

I am not aware of these expulsions. Do you have a link? My understanding is that there was less than 50 expulsions/suspensions.

According to wiki:
In February and July 2019, Labour issued information on investigations into complaints of antisemitism against individuals, with around 350 members resigning, being expelled or receiving formal warnings, equating to around 0.08% of the membership.

Labour distances itself from pro-Corbyn anti-Semitic Facebook groups

The Labour Party has distanced itself from a series of pro-Jeremy Corbyn Facebook groups which contain anti-Semitic and racist comments.

inews.co.uk

Among the resignations, director of Momentum and Corbyn backer Christine Shawcroft, the recently appointed head of the Labour Party's disputes panel, resigned after it emerged she had opposed the suspension of Peterborough council candidate Alan Bull, for what she called "a Facebook post taken completely out of context and alleged to show anti-Semitism". She later said that she had not seen the "abhorrent" Facebook post in question

Antisemitism in the British Labour Party - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[WolfeTone]

it's patently obvious his rhetoric attracts a certain audience.

With respect, this is an absurdity. Some of Corbyns 'rhetoric' is detailed earlier, including statements such as "Everyone must fight prejudice and hatred of Jewish people with every breath".
If this type of language is attracting anti-semites then we truly are living in a world turned upside down.

Instead, most likely imo, it is Corbyns legitimate criticism of Israeli government policy toward Palestine that may be, and often is conflated by some as being anti-semitism. Typically, by those opposed to his political criticism of Israeli policy.

racist comments.
The Sunday Times reported to have uncovered more than 2,000 messages in the groups, which numbered 400,000 members, including anti-Semitism and mysogyny, as well as threats of violence and Holocaust denial.

And the EHRC report had what to say about this?
Nothing, or next to nothing.

"The Labour Party told us that it has engaged with Labour-supporting Facebook
groups, who were identifiable as Party members, to provide guidance about
moderating content, as suggested by the Jewish Labour Movement. It has also
worked with Facebook to moderate groups that appear to support the Labour
Party but contain antisemitic content."

The problem with FB pages and groups is that it is not always clear who is behind them, or what the underlying intent is. For example, I frequently come across parody accounts of political leaders on FB and Twitter. Most are just for humour, but occasionally they can have more sinister intent such as the Tweet by Lord Alan Sugar depicting Corbyn sharing a car with Hitler on the way to Nuremberg - this could plausibly be suggestive of Corbyns intolerance to anti-semitism, albeit it was clearly contrived to damage his reputation.

The EHRC does not make any reference to the Sunday Times article on FB groups and without any real qualification it was right not to. Instead, working with FB to identify and moderate accounts that link LP and antisemitism is the recommendation rather than have no policy or procedure to deal with the matter.

with around 350 members resigning, being expelled or receiving formal warnings, equating to around 0.08% of the membership.

Ok, you have included formal warnings in that figure also.
The salient point in that statement is the tiny percentage of members that it relates to. Out of 437,500 members, it does not signify a party engrossed with anti-semitism, or attracting anti-semites. Certainly the Sunday Times 'investigation' figures looks absurd now.

The crux of the whole affair was the Labour Partys continued failure to address complaints of antisemitism in an efficient and effective way. This gave way to the (false) impression that Corbyn was tolerant of or turned a blind-eye to anti-semitism. As can been seen earlier, in no way could it be plausibly construed that he had a 'blindspot' or would tolerate antisemitism considering he has spent his political life fighting against all forms of discrimination.
The Labour Party machinery of staff in the office of Leader of the Opposition in Westminster and the National Executive Committee were incompetent, inconsistent and effectively incapable of dealing with the issue. As Corbyn was leader, ultimately the axe would fall on him. But anti-semitism in the Labour Party is not a phenomenon derived from Corbyns leadership or 'rhetoric'. The scale of the issue, albeit not to be tolerated in any way, is actually very small as the current deputy leader Angela Rayner agrees.
In turn, Corbyns claim that the issue was dramatically overstated for political reasons is absolutely correct.

 

[odyssey06]

The crux of the whole affair was the Labour Partys continued failure to address complaints of antisemitism in an efficient and effective way. This gave way to the (false) impression that Corbyn was tolerant of or turned a blind-eye to anti-semitism. As can been seen earlier, in no way could it be plausibly construed that he had a 'blindspot' or would tolerate antisemitism considering he has spent his political life fighting against all forms of discrimination.
The Labour Party machinery of staff in the office of Leader of the Opposition in Westminster and the National Executive Committee were incompetent, inconsistent and effectively incapable of dealing with the issue. As Corbyn was leader, ultimately the axe would fall on him. But anti-semitism in the Labour Party is not a phenomenon derived from Corbyns leadership or 'rhetoric'. The scale of the issue, albeit not to be tolerated in any way, is actually very small as the current deputy leader Angela Rayner agrees.
In turn, Corbyns claim that the issue was dramatically overstated for political reasons is absolutely correct.

This is what a blind spot looks like. these are the people who put Corbyn into office.

Among the resignations, director of Momentum and Corbyn backer Christine Shawcroft, the recently appointed head of the Labour Party's disputes panel, resigned after it emerged she had opposed the suspension of Peterborough council candidate Alan Bull, for what she called "a Facebook post taken completely out of context and alleged to show anti-Semitism". She later said that she had not seen the "abhorrent" Facebook post in question.

The Labour Party has a problem with anti-semitism. IN the digital age \ mass reporting a vocal group of members have an impact out of proportion to their numbers, it's no longer just the people who heard this stuff in the pub on the night.

I'll leave you with the words of the current Labour leader. I've nothing more to add than what he has below.
People reading this thread can make up their minds who is serious about zero tolerance for anti-semitism in the Labour party.

Keir Starmer said: "If, after all the pain, all the grief, and all the evidence in this report, there are still those who think there's no problem with anti-semitism in the Labour party, that it’s all exaggerated, or a factional attack, then frankly you are part of the problem too and you should be nowhere near the Labour party either."

 

[WolfeTone]

The Labour Party has a problem with anti-semitism.

No-one suggested otherwise. It is the extent of that problem, and people's interpretation of it, that gave rise Corbyns suspension.

The only reason why Corbyn was suspended was because of his comment that said the issue was "dramatically overstated for political reasons by our opponents outside the party and inside the party and by the media"

This is evident from the actual findings of the EHRC report rather than what is being peddled by media outlets such as the Sunday Times.

Accusations levelled at Corbyn having a 'blindpost', or it was his 'rhetoric' that attracted anti-semites to the Labour Party are part of the smear campaign and do not feature in anyway shape or form in EHRC findings.

According to the BBC
"Six minutes after the clip aired, Labour released a statement saying they had suspended Mr Corbyn from the party."
BBC report

It would appear that the Labour Party is still incapable of administrating a proper disciplinary process without political interference.

People reading this thread can make up their minds who is serious about zero tolerance for anti-semitism in the Labour party.

In the words of current Labour Party deputy leader Angela Rayner "I believe that the statement [Corbyns] around the small numbers and to suggest that it is a small number within the Labour Party, whilst that might be true, it is completely unacceptable to not understand the hurt and the distress..."

March 2018

- Corbyn apologises for hurt and pain caused to Jewish community.

Rayner should face sanction for suggesting that what Corbyn said is true about the small numbers if, as the EHRC recommends, the Labour Party is to apply a consistent approach to complaints of antisemitism and to those denying the apparent extent of it.

Otherwise, the political connivance at play is obvious to see.

 

[Purple]

The bigger issue here is the battle within Labour between the ideologues and the realists. The UK public have comprehensively rejected the fundamentalist socialist brand of Labour politics in every election for the last +40 years. They rendered themselves unelectable when the Unions subverted the democratic will of the Labour Membership and used their block vote to put the wrong Miliband in charge. David Miliband could have won an election. Ed couldn't have won a bun fight.
Corbyn is an intolerant bigot who is only interested in "his" people and a very unpleasant person. He ran the Labour Party like an old school Marxist. I don't know if he is anti-semitic but his blanket dislike of Israel is so strong that it's hard to see where the line is. He certainly thought that he, and his brand of 1950's socialism, was more important that the rules within the party.

 

[WolfeTone]

The bigger issue here is the battle within Labour

Yes, so much so that some of them were absolutely prepared to drag the name and reputation of the Labour Party through the mud and subject it to vile accusations of widespread and institutionalised anti-semitism (rather than the small number of members) in order to restore their primacy at the helm, albeit rejected by their own members.

I don't know if he is anti-semitic but his blanket dislike of Israel is so strong that it's hard to see where the line is.

And its this conflation of genuine criticism of Israeli policy towards Palestine with anti-semitism that is being weaponised.
Critics of Corbyn will point to his reluctance to criticise Iran and Hamas in equal measure. This is genuine criticism. But equally, the obvious and clear distrust and hatred of Iran by many on the right is rarely, if ever, equated to Islamaphobia.

He certainly thought that he, and his brand of 1950's socialism, was more important that the rules within the party.

Which rules of the party did he break?

 

[Purple]

Yes, so much so that some of them were absolutely prepared to drag the name and reputation of the Labour Party through the mud and subject it to vile accusations of widespread and institutionalised anti-semitism (rather than the small number of members) in order to restore their primacy at the helm, albeit rejected by their own members.

I think that's a rather one-eyed view of what happened.

And its this conflation of genuine criticism of Israeli policy towards Palestine with anti-semitism that is being weaponised.
Critics of Corbyn will point to his reluctance to criticise Iran and Hamas in equal measure. This is genuine criticism.

His criticism of Israel is as one with the more fundamentalist Islamic States. There is no nuance, no balance, just a rejection which is no more mature or rational than a first year in a 1960's student's union debate.

The rest of your post is whataboutism; nobody here is saying that BoJo isn't a bigot or racist.
His Stalinist Purge of the Party showed that his ego and ideology was more important than respecting the membership.

 

[WolfeTone]

nobody here is saying that BoJo isn't a bigot or racist.

If you know that, and I know that, surely his party knows that?

I don't want to deflect from the issue at hand, but it does shed light on the political impetus of Corbyns enemies within his party to remove him from office.

I don't think we are going to agree, so I will leave this there.