Comments sought about flooring an attic

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bullworth

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I have a very small attic . It's more like a crawlspace with trusses and various beams impeding movement around it. Currently I have shoved various objects I don't need up there for example the large box my desktop computer came in.

There is rockwool or something similar between the joists which is exposed looking from above..
The attic is much colder than the rest of the house and there is a big water tank up there but it's a very small place.

I would like some comments /advice about putting some kind of floor up there so that I can pack boxes of files etc and things that I don't need and get them out of my way long term. There would be a very small danger of putting my foot through the ceiling plaster if I crawled up there currently. Theres a large unseen part of the attic I haven't crawled into as its too dark and murky along with the possible dangers I have outlined but trademen have been up there for different reasons over the years.

Can anyone recommend which type of boards I should put up there ?

Cheap but strong enough is the quality I am looking for. The easier it is to remove if access is needed in future the better. Perhaps something with good insulating properties would be an added bonus and compliment the rockwool ? I have a jigsaw/various saws for cutting and a workbench. Perhaps I should get a staple gun and rivet the new boards instead of nailing them down or maybe some kind of clicklock boards would be better but probably more expensive ? I need something practical rather than flashy but if it improved the insulation of the roof that would be a bonus. The job might necessitate cutting some awkward shapes.

Any comments welcome.
 
I have recently written to SEAI challenging their advice to insulate with 300mm quilted insulation at "floor" level as this freezes the rest of the attic.
The more material you put at "floor" level in the attic, the colder the space above this is going to become.
Read some of the older posts on AAM and Boards.ie from around last winter.

There were reports of condensation in cold unventilated attics, frost on the inside of the roofing felt etc.
My advice is to insulate following the line of the roof in accordance with http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1647,en.pdf (Technical Guidance Document F 2009, Diagram 11, P. 28.)

I don;'t advise simply flooring out the space if you intend to use it for habitable use at any point in the future.
If you are converting the attic space for habitable use, or intending a huge floor loading you will need to carry out the additional work required compliantly.

This will involve, inter alia -

- laying additional joists specified flooring strength and depth between the existing ceiling joists to support the new loads
- these may need a spacer to prevent the ceiling plaster beneath "popping" under deflection from the imposed loads.
- installing a secondary means of escape and
- upgrading fire separation
- upgrading detection
- upgrading alarm, etc.

There is a lot involved and thsi list only scratches the surface - your architect or perhaps your local authority can advise.
The space should not be used for sleeping occupancy unless all the safety measures are in place compliantly.

You may find http://www.environ.ie/en/DevelopmentHousing/BuildingStandards/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,1657,en.pdf (this guide to attic conversions from the DOEHLG) useful.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matter at hand.
 
bullworth said:
I have a very small attic . It's more like a crawlspace with trusses and various beams impeding movement around it. Currently I have shoved various objects I don't need up there for example the large box my desktop computer came in.
Any comments welcome.
Click to expand...

I floored my attic at construction stage. This has meant I now have difficulty accessing wiring, Sky cabling, installing plumbing and so on if I decided to make the attic habitable, as it it big enough. I also suspect that the insulation below the attic floorboards is less than optimal. If you wish to use the attic space as a storage area, I would recommend plywood, maximum 1/4" (60mm or so). It would be a good time to add insulation between the joists but make sure you insulate over and around the water tank and pipes, not under. Also, it should be sufficient to place lengths of plywood cut to fit your attic trapdoor on the joists with minimum fixing, even laying loose across the joists and do make sure you map out the location of wiring and any piping for future ease of access. Bear in mind the need to allow ventilation especially around the edges and as pointed out by ONQ.
 
Hi Slim

The service runs should have been redesigned, relocated and labeled or safety and ease of access.
Marking their positions on the floored out sections may be of limited use if its filled with storage boxes. :)
You should have a marked plan of the attic showing you where all the locations, runs and connection points/drops are.

This is where I have found asking a mechanical and electrical consulting engineer to attend and write a specification for me pays huge dividends.
Budget for him noting a layout on the architects drawings for best disposition of services and for returning to check its all been carried out correctly.
A couple of hundred quid spent at that stage will save many frustrating hours later, plus you will have accessible services to deal with in the years to come.

Re enclosing services in a floor-out attic.
Compressing services under boards is not a good idea.
Notching joists which you are about to load up is not a good idea.
The above is in relation to cut timber roofs - you shouldn't touch trussed roofs at all.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matter at hand.
 
ONQ . I am not sure where the ventilation comes from in the house . Are there supposed to be air gaps under the eaves/gutter ? If there is I cant see them from a visual inspection when standing on the ground outside the house.
I certainly do not want to end up with a dry rot or dampness problem.
As I stated in my OP , the attic is a crawlspace and will never be used for habitation or sleeping etc so talk of alarm or fire exit modifications while welcome is way too much information. To make it comfortable for habitation would require major work and that's not my goal.However I tend to not throw things away easily so desperately need this extra storage space for my files and documents etc. Neither would there be a huge loading as the boxes wont be stacked considering the height of the roof. However all interior walls in the house are made of brick and the rooms underneath are small so the house is very strongly built. Boxes of light files and my own weight spread horizontally across beams ( and very rarely my own weight since the storage is intended to be long term) while crawling to access the boxes would not constitute a large load. I have very simple requirements. Is it your opinion that flooring with anything which increases insulation could increase dampness in the attic ? I would probably avoid covering the edges of the crawlspace behind the trusses as it would not be useful storage space anyway and I do not want to risk accidentally hitting a beam and dislodging it. The attic was cold during the winter and still is a bit chilly however there was never a frost or dampness problem there. I would be careful to avoid trapping cables etc .
One issue might be that the insulation rockwool could be slightly compressed if boards went over it. Theres no insulation under the water tank but I believe thats normal. I pointed it out to the builder at the time the house was built and he said it's that way to ensure the tank doesn't freeze during winter.
Slim: lengths of plywood cut to fit your attic trapdoor sounds like a practical approach and helped me focus on the initial stages.

I would be wary about notching or cutting the beams. Perhaps some weak glue might be suitable for holding down the plywood ? If I have it tightly fitted then all I would have to worry about would be horizontal slippage so I could glue it at the edges where it meets the trapdoor ? or just put very few nails around the trapdoor where this would be easiest ?

So thanks to all for the interesting responses.
 
Hi bullworth

TDG F Posted above shows the ventilation required by the building regulations.

Compressing insulation means it transmits more heat and works less well.
Increasing the amount of uncompressed insulation or using an insulating board will make the attic above colder.
If your attic survived last winter without insulation then you may be okay but remember the materials stored also help insulate the space - so things may change.

The builder was partly correct - no insulation underneath permits rising heat to keep the tank from freezing.
But the tank should be insulated on the sides and have an insulated cover.

Used for storage as you describe you may be okay.
I'd invite a friendly engineer or architect in for a coffee and ask him to look at your floor joists dimensions and spacing.
Remember that paper is made of wood and has a huge dead weight - try carrying a box file full of stacked papers and you soon realize this! :)


[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matter at hand.
 
onq said:
If your attic survived last winter without insulation then you may be okay but remember the materials stored also help insulate the space - so things may change.
Click to expand...

Thanks ONQ . I think it would be ok. My water didn't even freeze luckily. The roof kept a thick layer of snow on top during the worst winter weather and I suspect that igloo-like this increased the insulation in the roof while it was there.
 
I think you're probably correct Bullworth,

Roofs in places like Switzerland are designed to keep snow on them during the winter.

If its good enough for the Eskimos... :)


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matter at hand.
 
onq said:
Hi Slim
You should have a marked plan of the attic showing you where all the locations, runs and connection points/drops are.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

.
Click to expand...

LOL - Lucky to have an attic...built by muppets
 
Anywhere work is "hidden" the standards can be poor, whoever builds it.

Still, you've a bit of time to make a few improvements! :)

I advise marking all your cable and pipes positions.

Use tape or white sticks etc to show routes.

That will hopefully help avoid accidents.


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matter at hand.
 
bullworth said:
I would like some comments /advice about putting some kind of floor up there so that I can pack boxes of files etc and things that I don't need and get them out of my way long term. .
Click to expand...


If you don't need them dump them, attic hoarding is a fire hazard.

I was going to floor my attic last year, then the big frost came and every pipe and the tank froze up there.
I spent and age thawing out the place, then for the rest of the time leaving the trap door open to let heat up into it. I soon changed my mind about flooring.
 
firefighter,

Flooring out per se wasn't your problem - location of the insulation was.

This is where my advice to insulate following the line of the roof comes from.

This protects structure, services and contents in the attic if its done compliantly.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matter at hand.
 
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