I didn't want to rant in what is a civilized thread over in Homes and Gardens about cleaners which I find a bit crazy so I'll let off steam here instead. I wouldn't let anyone in to my house to pick up/clean up after us. I can't see how it is such a big problem to keep the house clean when both parents are working so you're not there all day and presumably the kids are in a crèche/playschool/school and you have all mod cons . . this country has gone mad, everyone has cleaners . . what next?
Cleaners - are they worth it?
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MissRibena
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I have mixed feelings on this subject.
Obviously, I don't mind what anyone spends their money on or how they earn it so I'm not looking to ban cleaners or anything. I understand the concept of people who totally hate (or are rubbish at) ironing or whatever working at something they are happier at to get money to pay someone else to do the ironing they loathe. It's just an extension of getting a takeaway if you don't feel like cooking or paying someone to do a right job of the wallpapering/hedgecutting. It makes sense on lots of levels and it's how the world goes round.
On the other hand, something doesn't feel right about it. Firstly if the cleaner can do it in 2 or 3 hours a week, that's not a lot of time to find for a whole family to make a job of it. I definitely don't agree with the lion's share falling to the woman and I would guess that that is what happens a lot and that when there is a few extra shilling around, it's easier to pay someone to do it than feel like a doormat doing it yourself or cajoling a partner/kids to do it. Is it a good message to give to kids - I dunno really; there are possibly class, civic and gender messages. It does seem that most domestic cleaners are still women from a lower socio-economic background working for cash in hand and it is interesting that households that feel they can afford this luxury often don't stretch to pay for a tax compliant firm who might otherwise legally employ these women and afford them with the full benefits of employment.
Personally, I think it's good for a person to have to clean up after themselves and understand the implications of messiness/dirtiness, to appreciate that it is not pleasant for others to have to clean up after you etc. and to know that not everyone has cleaners. If the kids get in the way, can you not just shout at them like my mother did
It's a sign of the times that after the birth of a baby or when someone is sick, people now pay for a cleaner rather than rely on friends/relatives/kids to do the work. Just another sign of how individualised society is becoming; something which I don't like.
Rebecca
Obviously, I don't mind what anyone spends their money on or how they earn it so I'm not looking to ban cleaners or anything. I understand the concept of people who totally hate (or are rubbish at) ironing or whatever working at something they are happier at to get money to pay someone else to do the ironing they loathe. It's just an extension of getting a takeaway if you don't feel like cooking or paying someone to do a right job of the wallpapering/hedgecutting. It makes sense on lots of levels and it's how the world goes round.
On the other hand, something doesn't feel right about it. Firstly if the cleaner can do it in 2 or 3 hours a week, that's not a lot of time to find for a whole family to make a job of it. I definitely don't agree with the lion's share falling to the woman and I would guess that that is what happens a lot and that when there is a few extra shilling around, it's easier to pay someone to do it than feel like a doormat doing it yourself or cajoling a partner/kids to do it. Is it a good message to give to kids - I dunno really; there are possibly class, civic and gender messages. It does seem that most domestic cleaners are still women from a lower socio-economic background working for cash in hand and it is interesting that households that feel they can afford this luxury often don't stretch to pay for a tax compliant firm who might otherwise legally employ these women and afford them with the full benefits of employment.
Personally, I think it's good for a person to have to clean up after themselves and understand the implications of messiness/dirtiness, to appreciate that it is not pleasant for others to have to clean up after you etc. and to know that not everyone has cleaners. If the kids get in the way, can you not just shout at them like my mother did
It's a sign of the times that after the birth of a baby or when someone is sick, people now pay for a cleaner rather than rely on friends/relatives/kids to do the work. Just another sign of how individualised society is becoming; something which I don't like.
Rebecca
Sinewave has a point but I tend to agree with Miss Ribena, I see a lot of small ads on the local supermarkets' notice boards for "Latvian/ Lithuania/ Polish" cleaners. It does sit a little uneasily with me, but I don't want to begrudge these people the opportunity to work and earn money which is why they are here, it's just that I don't see why we should expect to pay them less to do it than perhaps an "Irish" person. My wife and I share the household drudgery pretty fairly ( I hope she'd agree with me on this!) and I think it is probably a good thing to be hands on when it comes to cleaning up after yourself, it's certainly a better lesson for children.
Henny Penny
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When I lived in Madrid there was a culture of employing servants, cleaners, nannies etc. even among the moderately well off. Perhaps due to the fact that spanish speaking staff (usually south american) could be employed at very cheap rates.
This is something that seems to be creeping in here too, with the influx of workers from new EU states.
As a child my mother had a housekeeper ... but she had the 4 children under 6 and no family around. We stayed at home until we went to school ... did not attend nursery, playschool etc. So imagine the mess! I can see why she employed someone.
I don't see how there can be much housework generated by families that only sleep in their homes during the week and live there at the weekends. (eg 2 parents working long hours + children in full time daycare).
I admit housework is drudgery, but there must be a place in life for it. Why must every minute be filled with quality time? Is it such a burden to know how to cook, clean and manage a home?
This is something that seems to be creeping in here too, with the influx of workers from new EU states.
As a child my mother had a housekeeper ... but she had the 4 children under 6 and no family around. We stayed at home until we went to school ... did not attend nursery, playschool etc. So imagine the mess! I can see why she employed someone.
I don't see how there can be much housework generated by families that only sleep in their homes during the week and live there at the weekends. (eg 2 parents working long hours + children in full time daycare).
I admit housework is drudgery, but there must be a place in life for it. Why must every minute be filled with quality time? Is it such a burden to know how to cook, clean and manage a home?
MissRibena
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Not me but it doesn't follow that the cleaners are in those households. My sister, my boss and my best friend all have 3 or 4 kids under 12 and none of them have cleaners. I do know other people with cleaners but the ones I know are two older households with no children (friends of my mam) and one ex boyfriend who was never a fan of the mop.
Rebecca
Rebecca
My wife has opted to stay at home (for the next year or so anyway) to look after our first child. Prior to that she had a pretty demanding professional job in the health service (working with children!). Child or no child I hope we'll always manage to clean up after ourselves, cut grass, clean windows, do the garden etc. Maybe it's just me but I like to be self sufficient, I hate the "oh I'm just so lost without my cleaner/ gardener/ window cleaner/ nanny, she's on holidays" brigade! "This person exists to make my life easier".
Reason I asked the above question was because the original thread was posted by some one in the situation of a household where both parents worked fulltime and had children, and of course as this thread was started by michaelm with this comment-
so it seems directed at this type of household. But realistically you can't even say all such households are alike. For example one such household might also care for an elderly dependant, or have similar family obligations. Another similar household might be in the middle of building their own house, or setting up a business. Or doing a weekend job to supplement their income. Or they might have a child with special needs...
But I don't agree in any case with the premise that these days people have more help or that life is easier than the last generation. My parents employed various types of help over the years. And they had the benefit of a large nearby family to help out when they needed it. Times have changed in that many people don't have family nearby to help out, and they work longer hours or commute which means less time at home, and theres a tendency for both adults in such a household to work, whereas in the past only one ( generally the man) was working outside the home. Times have changed alright, but I don't think things have become easier.
But then I run my own business, Mr.V works fulltime, we have a toddler, and we employ a cleaner for a couple of hours a week.
One other point, as anyone in this situation will know, unfortunately employing a cleaner for a couple of hours a week doesnt mean they do all the housework, I can assure you, theres still plenty to be done!
Indeed. You forgot that some may have Seasonal Affective Disorder and therefore can only be bothered to clean up on sunny daysVanilla said:
. I know people in all the situations you mention but none have cleaners. I'm kinda sorry I started this now but there's just something about it that doesn't sit right with me.We are on the verge of getting someone in, Mrs Bears works just 3 days a week and spends Thursdays and Fridays at home with the Cub (1 year old).Still and all there is a lot of work to be done, the ironing tends to get on top of us, although I can throw my hand at that job as well as most others. We have done up the house to try and minimise cleaning etc. I personally would follow Carpenters view and try and keep the house work between us but sometimes (if cub gets sick) it can be very exhausting to get everything done
I suppose it can be all too easy to be self righteous about whether you have a cleaner or not, I think it's perfectly valid for people to employ help if they need it. BUT there is a growing number of people who rely on this help for reasons other than need, perhaps its laziness or greed ("I can earn more (thus) consume more if I pay someone else to do stuff I don't want to do"). Anyone know a good professional dog walker, Laois area?
I want to get a cleaner and there's only me and my boyfriend in the house - no kids but we occasionally mind a dog. We both work full time so by the end of a working day we're exhausted and the last thing we feel like doing is cleaning toilets, changing bedsheets, gardening, hoovering etc. I'm sick of my weekends turning into marathon cleaning sessions and I really want to get some time back for myself!
And there are still builders on site near the house so the amount of dust is unreal and accumulates whether we're there or not.
And there are still builders on site near the house so the amount of dust is unreal and accumulates whether we're there or not.
Well, 'need' is subjective. I feel I 'need' a cleaner, but I don't really. Physically I could do it all myself, but I don't want to. And I don't see that as a problem, or that because I want a cleaner that I somehow have become a lazy sod with more money than sense. My cleaner is Irish, and has children in college, and she doesnt have a problem with cleaning as her occupation. Nor do I feel in any way 'superior' to her because I employ her services. Ditto with my fathers cleaner who has become a family friend. Its a service like any other. The days of class distinction because of your occupation are gone, IMO.
I agree with the above sentiments and this is why I initiated the cleaners query on the homes and gardens thread.
We both work fulltime and have 2 kids under 3 and 1/2. They generate a lot of laundy/ironing tidying up after and find that by the time they go to bed and are settled by 8am I just want to do the basics and don't have time for the jobs like floor washing/bathrooms/ironing. i do get some done but not to the standard I see at houses who employ a cleaner.
For less than 50 quid a week I can get all these basics done if i employ a cleaner so why not? The cleaner is looking for a few extra euros and is willing to do the job so whats wrong with that?
My MIL is a fantastic cleaner and would do it for us if she lived nearer. She takes no time to get the house into shape when she visits but I don't have the same energy when it comes to housework as she does!
IMO there is nothing wrong with paying someone to do the jobs you can't/won't do i.e some people pay to get their lawns cut/cars washed/houses painted etc...THey could do them themselves but why not pay someone if you don't wnat to do it yourself?
MissRibena
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I would hazard a guess that most (not all - before the cavaly of high horses arrive) people do not use the services of a cleaning company and use regular individual cleaners on an "it's up to them to sort out their own tax" basis. People are not "employing" cleaners if they are not paying PAYE, PRSI and giving them their full entitlements as employees. This is not good for the economy or even the cleaner his/her-self as they have none of the rights, benefits or protection that a legal employee has and there is no revenue generated for the central coffers. Perhaps the cleaner feels they are the master of their own destiny by working hours that suit etc. outside the law but they are only codding themselves in the long run. It also makes it pretty impossible for any cleaner who wants to operate legitimately to be competitive.
The only winner in these situations are the people who need or want someone else to do their cleaning but do not seem prepared to pay the proper tax-inclusive price. It would be one thing using a cleaner and not paying tax because you were totally desperately stuck for the help and didn't have the money but for most people this is a luxury service. I think that might be why it sticks in my craw. It seems very unfair that someone who spends their life cleaning (a hard way to earn a living) will not even be entitled to even the basic benefits of PRSI (contrib. pension, dental work etc) and in the end no matter how I dress it up, to me, it feels like the rich taking advantage of the poor.
Rebecca
The only winner in these situations are the people who need or want someone else to do their cleaning but do not seem prepared to pay the proper tax-inclusive price. It would be one thing using a cleaner and not paying tax because you were totally desperately stuck for the help and didn't have the money but for most people this is a luxury service. I think that might be why it sticks in my craw. It seems very unfair that someone who spends their life cleaning (a hard way to earn a living) will not even be entitled to even the basic benefits of PRSI (contrib. pension, dental work etc) and in the end no matter how I dress it up, to me, it feels like the rich taking advantage of the poor.
Rebecca