Class S PRSI from ARF for JSB

G

Gettinolder

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Hi, apologies if this has been covered before but if so, I can't see it.

In a second claim for JSB self-employed (more than a year later), will Class S PRSI contributions from an ARF count for the 52 weeks of contributions? They are "paid" contributions, but are not directly from employment. My understanding is that they will count towards State pension, and the JSB from age 65 to 66, but I'm not 100% sure.
 
I am guessing here...

Class S contributions are class S contributions regardless of how you got them. So if you have 52 in the governing year you meet this rule.

It might be the case that the earnings from the ARF won't be included in the total weekly earnings used to calculate the level of JBSE that you will receive.

If this happens to be correct and you have no other self employment income for the governing year you would be entitled to minimum rate. This is roughly 110 euro per week.

Apply for JBSE and see what you are awarded.

You are correct class S from an ARF is reckonable for the State pension and Benefit Payment self employed at age 65.
 
Thanks S Class, that's what I thought too, ie, if they are "paid" contributions (which they are, but not directly from employment) they should count, but Welfare say not, and have disallowed the claim.

They have disallowed "in accordance with Section 68H(2)(a) of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005, as amended", which I confess I cannot find or identify when reviewing the Act!
 
Gettinolder said:
which I confess I cannot find or identify when reviewing the Act!
Click to expand...

(2) Where a person entitled to jobseeker’s benefit (self-employed) has exhausted their right to jobseeker’s benefit (self-employed), he or she shall requalify for that benefit when— (a) he or she has qualifying contributions in respect of 52 self-employment contribution weeks since the last week for which he or she was entitled to that benefit,
 
Here’s a copy of that section-

68H. Duration of payment | Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005 (No. 26) | Better Regulation

Irish Employment Law, Irish Pensions Law, Legislation (IE), Acts, 2019
service.betterregulation.com

Do you have qualifying contributions in respect of 52 self-employed contribution weeks since the last week for which you were originally entitled to the benefit?

I can’t see any reason why contributions payable from an ARF drawdown wouldn’t count.
 

​

68H. Duration of payment​


"(1)Subject to this Chapter, jobseeker’s benefit (self-employed) shall be payable for -

(a)26 weeks to a person who has fewer than 260 self-employment contribution weeks in the period between his or her entry into insurance and the week for which jobseeker’s benefit (self-employed) is claimed, or

(b)39 weeks to a person who has not less than 260 self-employment contribution weeks in the period between his or her entry into insurance and the week for which jobseeker’s benefit (self-employed) is claimed.

(2)Where a person entitled to jobseeker’s benefit (self-employed) has exhausted their right to jobseeker’s benefit (self-employed), he or she shall requalify for that benefit when -

(a)he or she has qualifying contributions in respect of 52 self-employment contribution weeks since the last week for which he or she was entitled to that benefit, and

(b)a minimum of 12 months has elapsed since the last week for which he or she was entitled to that benefit."



This section is referring to the period between the end of your last payments and the beginning of a new claim.

Did you actually have some form of self employed other than an ARF during this period ?
 
From your first post I was assuming that you were referring to the 52 contributions for the governing year.

If you are trying to use 52 ARF contributions to count for the year from your last JBSE payment, this won't work.

You need to have an actual loss of self employment to qualify.

Your ARF is still operating so you have no loss of self employment related to it.

If you want to qualify for BPSE 65, you need to have ceased a self employment after age 63. The ARF on its own wil not allow you to qualify without this loss of other self employment.
 
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@S class

I don’t see why.

As long as you have 52 Class S contributions since the last benefit payment, that should requalify you for the benefit under the legislation.

There’s nothing in the legislation that requires you to re-gain and re-lose self-employment subsequent to receiving the original benefit.
 
Sarenco said:
As long as you have 52 Class S contributions since the last benefit payment, that should requalify you for the benefit under the legislation.
Click to expand...

But the legislation says self-employment contribution weeks. Just because both self employment income and investment income are subject to Class S does not necessarily mean that investment income Class S is as valid for JB as self employment income Class S.
 
In order to requalify for any form of Jobseekers Benefit the person must have suffered a new substantial loss of employment.

While the ARF has provided the necessary Prsi contributions, it has not provided the new substantial loss of employment.

If the ARF was exhausted it would probably work.
 
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Well, that’s not what the legislation says.

It doesn’t say anything about a new substantial loss of (self-)employment.

I think it’s uncontroversial that Class S contributions payable on ARF drawdowns constitute “qualifying contributions” for the purposes of the 65 benefit/State pension.

So why wouldn’t they constitute “qualifying contributions” for the purposes of the job-seekers benefit?

I suspect the OP simply didn’t make 52 weeks of Class S contributions on the ARF drawdowns since the last benefit payment was received but perhaps he might clarify.
 
Thanks very much everyone for these posts, I think I'm bunched as far as a new claim is concerned. I could stop the ARF voluntarily if I wanted, but if ARF class S don't count as employment contributions (which was more a hope than anything) then that's that. Many thanks again
 
@Gettinolder

If a person with an ARF of over 5k did a small amount of earned self employment during any particular year, the earned self employment no matter how small will generate another 52 class S contributions.

So the person with the ARF sets up a self employment, does a small e.g. plumbing job and earns 100 euro. He then ceases the plumbing self employment and claims JBSE.

He has 52 class S from his plumbing self employment and has a loss of employment.

He could then be eligible to claim JBSE.
 
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Does this not cover it?

"Approved Retirement Funds​


Self-employed contributors who have lost their usual self-employed occupation and who are in receipt of an Approved Retirement Fund (ARF), as defined by section 784A of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997, may be eligible for JBSE in certain circumstances.
SI 540 of 2022, provides that any week where a self-employed contributor is in receipt of income solely from an ARF it is considered a week of unemployment and the person may be considered eligible for JBSE where:
  • the person has sustained the loss of self-employment in their usual occupation. A person’s usual occupation is one where the type of work a person ordinarily performs for most of the time is by virtue of experience and/or training and is within a particular field of work.
  • and the loss of the usual self-employment occurred since the beginning of the second last complete calendar year before the year in which the application is made. For example, in order to qualify for a claim made in 2025 the applicant’s usual self-employed business must have closed on or after 01 January 2023. If the usual business closed before this date, JBSE is not payable.
The effect of this provision is to provide that if in any week a person has income solely from an ARF, and paying S cons, it will be treated as a week of unemployment and so they won’t be considered to be engaged in self-employment for the purpose of the JBSE conditions as long as they were also in a self-employed occupation and lost that employment no earlier than the beginning of the second last complete calendar year before the year in which the application is made."
 
@Sarenco

Yes.

The term 'suffered a substantial loss of employment' is not used in relation to JBSE.

The term used in relation to JBSE is 'becomes unemployed.'

Either way an employment loss must occur before a person becomes eligible to requalify for any unemployment benefits.


"A person who is self-employed and becomes unemployed may make a repeat claim for JBSE when that self-employment ends. Where a person reapplies for JBSE within 26 weeks of the previous JBSE claim, they will be entitled to receive the same rate of JBSE previously in payment, subject to satisfying the conditions for receipt of the payment and subject to any change in their circumstances and any budgetary changes"
 
Ruffian said:
Does this not cover it?
Click to expand...
Yes, having an ARF doesn't prevent a person from being eligible for JBSE.

To qualify they must also have a loss of another self employment.

For instance a plumber with an ARF who ceases his plumbing employment can claim JBSE.

This is why I have previously stated that having class S Prsi from an ARF will not allow a person to qualify for BP 65, if they have not ceased another self employment after age 63.
 
But the loss of self-employment has occurred!

Your argument is that in order to requalify for JBSE the applicant must have re-gained and subsequently re-lost some other self-employment.

I can’t see any basis for that interpretation of the legislation and the Operational Guidelines are silent on the point.

The quoted section above on repeat applications within 26 weeks of the initial application would not appear to be relevant to the question as to how somebody can requalify for a benefit they previously exhausted.
 
Sarenco said:
The quoted section above on repeat applications within 26 weeks of the initial application would not appear to be relevant to the question as to how somebody can requalify for a benefit they previously exhausted.
Click to expand...
It's not a quote about repeat claims within 26 weeks.

It's about repeat claims in general.

It just elaborates about the fact that a repeat claim within 26 weeks will be subject to the same payment as the previous claim.
 
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