Child Benefit

[Murt10]

Under new rules just introduced, the Department of Social Welfare will now pay child benefit to parents of children who are resident in another EU state.

All the foreign EU workers currently living here will be eligible. If the mother is employed or receiving child benefit in the other Country then the Department will pay the difference between the rate payable in this Country and the other Country.

Rate per month from April 2005 for each of the first two children €141.60
3rd and subsequent children €177.30 each per month.

Twins - Child Benefit is paid at one and a half times (150%) the normal monthly rate for each child.

I always thought that Child Benefit was to help with the high costs of bring up a child in this Country. If we have to pay them to people resident in the accession and other EU states, we might as well abolish the scheme before it bankrupts us.


Murt

 

[car]

Sorry Murt, I cant make out from your post who gets this. Is it Irish nationals in another state? Foreign nationals living here but gettings benefit in another country?
People living here who have children in another state?
eile?

thanks.

 

[Murt10]

Sorry for the confusion. Couldn't reply because there were gremlins on AAM.

The scheme now applies to foreign nationals living in Ireland with
their family living in another EU state.


"EXAMPLE

Father employed in the Republic of Ireland and paying Irish
social insurance. Mother and children residing in Poland.
Mother not employed.

In this scenario, Ireland would pay Child Benefit.

If the mother is employed in Poland, Poland would be the
competent State to pay Child Benefit and Ireland would pay a
supplementary payment only. A supplement is the difference
between the rate of Family Benefits paid in Poland and their
entitlement in Ireland. (Article 10 (10) 1 (a) of EU regulation
574/72)."



Now if we want to make a very bad situation worse under the terms of the scheme "Child Benefit is a benefit paid every month for each qualified child normally living with you and being supported by you." so the partner living abroad now submits a letter, along with birth certs, stating that they now have the care of their brothers or sisters 6 children who they state are now living with them. How are we going to prove that they are living with the claimant or not. Remember that there are huge sums of money involved and these people are living in Countries where the average industrial wage is a fraction of the Irish wage.


Murt

 

[RainyDay]

so the partner living abroad now submits a letter, along with birth certs, stating that they now have the care of their brothers or sisters 6 children who they state are now living with them. How are we going to prove that they are nor.

Presumably the same way we verify claims from Irish people - I don't see what the non-national issue has to do with it.

 

[Murt10]

In the Irish situation Child Benefit is paid for each child living in the Country and we don't have to verify where the child is living as only one person can claim it. If you are getting Child Benefit you are not going to say that the child is resident with someone else because you will lose the child benefit and they will gain it.

In the case of a child living abroad the parent loses nothing (very little) by saying that the child is resident with the partner of the worker resident in Ireland.


Murt

 

[Guest127]

maybe the way forward would be tax credits. Dont know how you would apply them to low earners except may a tax credit not used would entail a tax refund. If Murt is correct this is a very big door as there are hugh number of eu citizens working and paying their taxes and prsi here at present.

 

[franmac]

Murt,
I agree with you on this hand out of money to people in another country.
Where I live there is a major building development taking place and the majority of the workers are not Irish and they are sleeping in vans and taking every little fish ( by illegally netting) out of our canals where we have had a thriving tourism business with English anglers and our own local fishing clubs.
So by sleeping in their vans they are giving nothing back into our Country, not even paying for accomodation and are sending all the money they earn out of our country also the litter and dirt they are leaving on our canal banks is disgusting, if I chanced it the litter wardens would be around.

 

[ClubMan]

I can't find any mention of the alleged new rules on Child Benefit and non Irish EU nationals working in Ireland on the DSFA or OASIS websites. Anybody got a link to more detailed info? According to :

Child Benefit and EU Regulations

If you work in a country covered by EU Regulations, this country usually pays Child Benefit even if your family is living in another country. For more information on how EU rules affect Child Benefit, contact Child Benefit Section (see 'Where to apply' below).

Countries covered by EU Regulations are: Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lichenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Norway, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, the Netherland, United Kingdom (excluding the Channel Islands)

so if anything has changed perhaps it's just bringing Ireland into line with prevailing rules applied elsewhere in the EU?

Great to hear the "non nationals nicking the fish from the canals" story is still doing the rounds. I hadn't heard it in a while and was worried that it had died out. It's up there with the Chinese immigrants eating the ducks from the canals (previously, in pre-immigration days it was Chinese takeaways serving them or even seagulls to unsuspecting punters) in terms of Irish urban legends about those bloody foreigners...

If anybody is genuinely concerned about illegal fishing or dumping by anybody (regardless of nationality) and has genuine grounds for suspecting them of same then surely the onus is on them to report this behaviour to the relevant authorities. By the way, I'm not aware of any law that precludes people from sleeping in their motorised vehicle if they so choose.

 

[franmac]

Great to hear the "non nationals nicking the fish from the canals" story is still doing the rounds. I hadn't heard it in a while and was worried that it had died out. It's up there with the Chinese immigrants eating the ducks from the canals (previously, in pre-immigration days it was Chinese takeaways serving them or even seagulls to unsuspecting punters) in terms of Irish urban legends about those bloody foreigners...

If anybody is genuinely concerned about illegal fishing or dumping by anybody (regardless of nationality) and has genuine grounds for suspecting them of same then surely the onus is on them to report this behaviour to the relevant authorities. By the way, I'm not aware of any law that precludes people from sleeping in their motorised vehicle if they so choose.

Your name is'nt Thomas by any chance?

I happen to live very close to the canal ,when I walk out my door I am actually on the banks so I am speaking as an observer and a member of the Inland Waterways Assocation and the Royal Canal Amenity Group, I also walk the banks every day in all weathers and enjoy the hedgerows and bird life and the odd fish jumping which is my heritage.
However this year saw an "invasion" of people who came and abused the use of our amenity. I could go on and on with different incidences but I will keep it fairly short.

On one of my walks in July of this year I discovered hidden in the hedgerow nets and other equipment that could be assembled and stretched across the canal which I confiscated and contacted the Central Fisheries Board and told them of my find. They asked me to hold on to it and they would send personnel out to collect it as they were anxious to see what these people were using. The CFB are very aware of the problem but until a bill can be passed to restrict the amount of fish taken out of the canal their hands are tied. Dail closed for summer holidays
People were arriving during the day and feeding certain areas with, by the empty bags left on the banks,stating explosive feed etc. and the netters would arrive about dusk when most of our normal canal bank users ie dog walkers, joggers, birdwatchers,daddy with his young children to fish a recreational sport that we have always enjoyed. We have English anglers knocking at our door and crying "They are cleaning it out"

Regarding reporting these people to the relevant authorities, there is a van (on our canal bank) that carries a small boat similar to the "cots that are used on the Barrow and Suir rivers " and a fish finder and they have been fishing but when CFB approached them about fishing in the canal they said "we would'nt fish here your canals are filthy" our young people enjoy canoeing and swimming in our lovely canal.

Back to reporting people for illegal fishing the Garda were rang on numerous occasions and have never followed through.
I can go back to the van ( mentioned in the last paragraph ) and as far as we were concerned it was suspect and we asked the Garda to check the registeration and they came back and told us that they hav'ent a clue who owns it.

So it may not be against the law to sleep in your motorised van but who are you ?

 

[ClubMan]

Your name is'nt Thomas by any chance?

Good guess - it is as it happens.

On one of my walks in July of this year I discovered hidden in the hedgerow nets and other equipment that could be assembled and stretched across the canal which I confiscated and contacted the Central Fisheries Board and told them of my find. They asked me to hold on to it and they would send personnel out to collect it as they were anxious to see what these people were using. The CFB are very aware of the problem but until a bill can be passed to restrict the amount of fish taken out of the canal their hands are tied. Dail closed for summer holidays

What happened with all that rod license stuff? Don't people need a license to fish in public waters?

People were arriving during the day and feeding certain areas with, by the empty bags left on the banks,stating explosive feed etc. and the netters would arrive about dusk when most of our normal canal bank users ie dog walkers, joggers, birdwatchers,daddy with his young children to fish a recreational sport that we have always enjoyed. We have English anglers knocking at our door and crying "They are cleaning it out"

Sorry - I don't understand this sentence. Perhaps you can clarify.

Regarding reporting these people to the relevant authorities, there is a van (on our canal bank) that carries a small boat similar to the "cots that are used on the Barrow and Suir rivers " and a fish finder and they have been fishing but when CFB approached them about fishing in the canal they said "we would'nt fish here your canals are filthy" our young people enjoy canoeing and swimming in our lovely canal.

If there is some wrongdoing here then surely somebody can do something about it?

Back to reporting people for illegal fishing the Garda were rang on numerous occasions and have never followed through.

Have you followed this up with the Gardaí yourself? Where you suspect that a crime is being committed then calling 999/112 guarantees that the call is logged and responded to.

I can go back to the van ( mentioned in the last paragraph ) and as far as we were concerned it was suspect and we asked the Garda to check the registeration and they came back and told us that they hav'ent a clue who owns it.

Was there evidence of some crime being committed?

So it may not be against the law to sleep in your motorised van but who are you ?

I am Thomas/ClubMan. What has that to do with anything?

 

[CMCR]

Bringing this issue back to the Child Benefit question - Child Benefit is not just an Irish social welfare payment - it also exists in other EU states, where it is known as 'Family Benefit'. To be clear about this, while EU workers in Ireland with dependent children living abroad are entitled to claim Child Benefit in Ireland - Irish employees working in other EU states with dependent children living here are also entitled to claim the equivalent of Child Benefit over there.

The tone of some previous posts is somewhat worrying with some people perhaps under the impression that massive amounts of money are being fraudulently claimed by by valid, genuine EU national workers here who have an entitlements in law to these benefits.

You all might be interested (or not) to know that under the habitual residency requirements - workers must be living here for 2 years in order to claim social welfare benefits. This is called the habitual residency ruling and believe it or not, this origianlly applied to Child Benefit too until Ireland were rapped over the knuckles by the Commission for implementing this. A rather interesting situation where these workers had a right to Child Benefit under EU law.

Any EEA national who is employed or self-employed in Ireland and subject to the Irish PRSI system is entitled to Irish Child Benefit in respect of the members of his/her family, even if they are residing in another EEA State. Such entitlement continues where the person becomes unemployed and is in receipt of Irish Unemployment Benefit.

However - and maybe some of you are not aware of this - the amount of Irish Child Benefit paid, will depend on whether another EEA State is also paying a Family Benefit in respect of the same child(ren).

In other words therefore, an EU national working in Ireland will not be in receipt of the same level of child benefit in Ireland where they are in receipt of Child Benefit in respect of the same children in their home country.

I hope this resolves this matter. If I get a chance today - I'll ring Child Benefit section in DSFA to find out how the amount of Child Benefit paid to EU nationals in Ireland (where they are also claiming in another EU state) is calculated.

 

[Murt10]

the amount of Irish Child Benefit paid, will depend on whether another EEA State is also paying a Family Benefit in respect of the same child(ren).

In other words therefore, an EU national working in Ireland will not be in receipt of the same level of child benefit in Ireland where they are in receipt of Child Benefit in respect of the same children in their home country.

In the article below the author spoke to a Polish family of 6, the Maciaks. Two of the sons are unemployed so I don't know if child benefit is payable in respect of them or not. Anyway, according to the article the family receives a total of 86 pln (E22) in child benefit from the Polish state. Even if they only have two eligible children, if the Sp was to come to Ireland to work, he would receive a minimum of E261 (141.60 x 2 = 283.20 - 22) in child benefit. Again, this is a particularly small family, what about the families who have 6 - 8 children, which was not abnormal in Ireland 40 years ago.

http://wsws.org/articles/2005/feb2005/pol1-f03.shtml


According to this 2nd article below the minimum monthly wage in Poland in 2003 was 800 pln (E205) and the average monthly wage in Poland was 2140 pln (E548), so coming to Ireland, which is one of the only countries that will accept these people, must look very attractive, and that is why the people came here in the first place.

[broken link removed]



BTW, don't get me wrong, I think it's a great idea to have these people coming to Ireland and supplying us with their labour, for which we will pay the going rate. They benefit from the relatively high wages that we pay and they are free to send whatever they want back to their family at home. Irish people did the same for years.

However, the idea of the Irish state sending out massive amounts of money to support foreign workers children living in countries where the wages and cost of living is much, much lower than here, is not acceptable.

Anyone who has a child here knows that E141 pm is barely going to keep a kid in nappies and food for a month, let alone pay for the creche or childcare.



Murt

 

[franmac]

Hi Clubman, (Doubting Thomas)

I am not going to reply to most of your interrogation but I wish to state that my last statement on my thread "So it may not be against the law to sleep in your motorised van but who are you" was not directed at you.
Lets go to the van that was reported to our local Garda, they presumed it was a Northern Ireland reg. but when checked on their computer they could not find a registered owner.

If my car reg. was checked on the same computer they immediately have my name and address.

 

[ClubMan]

I am not going to reply to most of your interrogation

Not an interrogation - just trying to clarify a few issues that you mentioned. But feel free not to if you so choose.

but I wish to state that my last statement on my thread "So it may not be against the law to sleep in your motorised van but who are you" was not directed at you.
Lets go to the van that was reported to our local Garda, they presumed it was a Northern Ireland reg. but when checked on their computer they could not find a registered owner.

If my car reg. was checked on the same computer they immediately have my name and address.

I still don't understand your "who are you" comment or some other earlier comments that I mentioned above.

Whatever...