Can a retired PAYE worker use class S contributions to qualify for Benefit Payment 65.

@S class

I don’t disagree with any of that but it’s not the point I’m making.

Let’s say Joe was a self-employed plumber who sustained a loss of that self-employment when he turned 63. He then starts drawing from an ARF and makes PRSI contributions on same.

Does that preclude Joe from qualifying for BP65? No, Regulations provide that where a person has sustained a loss of self-employment in their usual occupation and only pay contributions on ARF drawdowns, that shall be regarded as a week of unemployment.

Now, take Jack who was employed by a multi-national but was made redundant on turning 63. Like Joe, Jack starts drawing from an ARF and makes PRSI contributions on same.

If your interpretation is correct, Joe would be considered to be unemployed at 65 but Jack wouldn’t, assuming both continue drawing from their respective ARFs.

Surely that can’t be right?

But If Joe sustained loss of self employment before the start of the calendar year of his 63rd birthday he would also be considered as being in self employment at age 65 if he has an ARF.

If Joe's ARF is then exhausted at age 65 he is then considered as being fully unemployed. He has fulfilled all the rules to qualify for BP65.

Joe should be awarded BP65.

Jack, if he also fulfills the class S Prsi rules for qualification for BP65 and if his ARF is exhausted at age 65 and is now fully unemployed and is insured for loss of employment, should also qualify.

Any insured self employed person who meets the class S qualification rules and becomes fully unemployed at age 65 should qualify.

They have paid the insurance, so they should to entitled to the benefit.

People whose only income is unearned are required to pay class S Prsi.

People with various other income sources are required to pay class K Prsi.

What is the logic for this ?

If the person whose only income is from rental or investments suffers a loss of this income, they have lost their livelihood.

Their unearned income was considered insurable self employment.
They are insured for loss of employment.

Do they get the Jobseekers benefit that they have paid for, or are they forced to apply for a means tested DSP payment ?

ARFs complicate the above situation. But If they require the payment of class S Prsi, then all benefits should be included.

S class said:

If your ARF was finished at age 65 you would then be considered to be unemployed and maybe you would qualify.

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Thanks for the clarifications. I guess it'll be worth a punt. I'll cease my PAYE employment the year I turn 60 and, unless the rules change in the interim, drawdown €5k each year from my ARF for the years I turn 61, 62 & 63. That should give me 156 PRSI S including 52 PRSI S in the reference year (I'll also have 2080+ PRSI A). There won't me much left in the ARF at that stage so I'll either draw it all down or convert to an annuity the year I turn 64 in the hope of qualifying for BP65SE the following year.

michaelm said:

Thanks for the clarifications. I guess it'll be worth a punt. I'll cease my PAYE employment the year I turn 60 and, unless the rules change in the interim, drawdown €5k each year from my ARF for the years I turn 61, 62 & 63. That should give me 156 PRSI S including 52 PRSI S in the reference year (I'll also have 2080+ PRSI A). There won't me much left in the ARF at that stage so I'll either draw it all down or convert to an annuity the year I turn 64 in the hope of qualifying for BP65SE the following year.

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Open to correction (from @S class) but you might also consider the option of working in a PAYE role at least 13 weeks in the year that you turn 61

From https://www.gov.ie/en/service/49d25-benefit-payment-for-65-year-olds/#how-to-qualify
"Have paid at least 39 PRSI contributions at Class A or H or have credited contributions in the governing contribution year. At least 13 of these contributions must be paid from employment in the governing contribution year, the two years before this, the last year or the current tax year."

I understand this to mean that you would qualify for BP65 if you had 13 paid weeks in the year you turn 61 and then make up the balance of the 39 contributions as credited contributions via your ARF drawdowns.

@S class

You seem to be ignoring this Regulation -


Joe would be considered unemployed at 65, whether or not he has ceased drawing from his ARF.

Redzer said:

At least 13 of these contributions must be paid from employment in the governing contribution year, the two years before this, the last year or the current tax year.

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I read "the two years before this" to mean both years before this.

michaelm said:

I read "the two years before this" to mean both years before this.

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I'm taking this from Item 11 of thread below

Redzer said:

"Have paid at least 39 PRSI contributions at Class A or H or have credited contributions in the governing contribution year. At least 13 of these contributions must be paid from employment in the governing contribution year, the two years before this, the last year or the current tax year."

I understand this to mean that you would qualify for BP65 if you had 13 paid weeks in the year you turn 61 and then make up the balance of the 39 contributions as credited contributions via your ARF drawdowns.

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Actually I now have a doubt about whether the ARF drawdowns would give applicable credited contributions for this condition.
ARF drawdowns give Class S but maybe Class A or H credited contributions are required? These could be available by claiming Job Seekers Benefit or making Voluntary PRSI Contributions.

Redzer said:

Actually I now have a doubt about whether the ARF drawdowns would give applicable credited contributions for this condition.
ARF drawdowns give Class S but maybe Class A or H credited contributions are required? These could be available by claiming Job Seekers Benefit or making Voluntary PRSI Contributions.

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At age 63 (or after the start of the calendar year of your 61st birthday) work in class A employment for 13 weeks and then continue to sign on for Jobseekers credits up to the end of the calendar year of your 63rd birthday and you will qualify.

The governing year rule is either 52 class S or 13 class A paid + minimum 26 Jobseekers credits.

It cannot be a mixture of both.

Sarenco said:

Joe would be considered unemployed at 65, whether or not he has ceased drawing from his ARF.

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Joe's hypothetical situation is not relevant to the what I am trying to establish is possible or not.

michaelm said:

There won't me much left in the ARF at that stage so I'll either draw it all down or convert to an annuity the year I turn 64 in the hope of qualifying for BP65SE the following year.

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Maybe this situation will be clarified before you reach age 65.

You should sign on for credits after you retire. This costs nothing and is very easy. Just a yearly sign on.
Keep all your options open.

michaelm said:

I read "the two years before this" to mean both years before this

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It's 13 paid contributions in either of these 2 years, not both of them.

A person who worked for 13 weeks into the calendar year of their 61st birthday will not need any more employment to qualify.

If they remain signing on for credits up to he end of the calender year of their 63rd birthday they meet all the rules for BP65.

@S class

I think Joe’s situation is relevant here.

Hopefully you now agree that Joe would be considered unemployed at 65, whether or not he has ceased drawing from his ARF.

That being the case, how likely is it that Jack would be treated differently to Joe?

It make no sense to me that Joe and Jack would be treated differently in essentially the same circumstances.

S class said:

But If Joe sustained loss of self employment before the start of the calendar year of his 63rd birthday he would also be considered as being in self employment at age 65 if he has an ARF.

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You are arguing a different point to the situation I am trying to establish.

If Joe is in the situation above and he applies for BP65 he won't qualify if his ARF is over 7.5k, because he is not covered by

If Joe converts his ARF into an Annuity before age 65 he has ceased a self employment and might now qualify for BP65 as he is now unemployed.

As you previously stated maybe I am reading too much into the DSP questionnaire. This will be established if or when a person tries this approach.

@S class

Sorry but could you explain where the 7.5k figure comes from and why it means that the cited Regulation is not applicable?

If his ARF is over 7.5k it is not classed as subsidiary employment.
Therefore he doesn't meet the BP65 qualification rules.

The regulation doesn't apply as he ceased his earned self employment outside the time period covered by it.

All of this is not relevant to what I am trying to highlight in this thread.

I am not going to continue this discussion further with you.

@S class

The rules around subsidiary employment are irrelevant in this context.

The Regulations and Operational Guidelines are crystal clear - where Joe has sustained a loss of self-employment in his usual occupation and only pays contributions on ARF drawdowns, that shall be regarded as a week of unemployment, provided that Joe’s loss of self-employment in his usual occupation occurred not earlier than the first day of the calendar year before he applied for BP65.

So, Joe the plumber would be regarded as unemployed if he only pays contributions on ARF drawdowns. The size of the ARF or the value of the drawdowns is irrelevant.

The only question is whether Jack, the former multinational employee, would be treated differently in similar circumstances.

hi S class
just reading your post im thinking of retiring in june on my 61 birthday but before i take the final step if i put it off for 13 weeks and retire in septembr i will then qualify for BP65 without doing anything else
i am going to draw down about 10 000 per year from prsa until its finished at 65 so is this the right strategy im pre 2004 class A
thanks

You can retire on your 61st birthday with no need for further employment. It's the calendar year of your 61st birthday that counts, so back to 1st January this year. You already have your 13 paid contributions for the calendar year of your 61st birthday.

Don't rely on the class S contributions from your PRSA drawdowns.

You need to have ceased a self employment to qualify using class S contributions.

In this thread I am speculating whether a person could qualify by using the ceasing of an ARF to be used as the ceasing of a self employment'. There is no certainty that this will work.

When you cease employment claim Jobseekers Benefit.
When the payments finish, contact DSP and ask to be allowed to continue signing on for Jobseekers credits. Keep signing on for credits up to the end of the calendar year of your 63rd birthday.

You will then meet all the class A rules for BP65 and you will receive the payments starting on your 65th birthday.

Jobseekers credits are free and only one sign on is necessary per year. You are still in a position to use credits in the governing year.
So to be 100% sure to qualify for BP65, use this method.

The idea of possibly ceasing an ARF in the hope that this might work would apply to a person currently over age 63 who cannot now gain 39 credits for their governing year.

You are not in this dilemma so no need to take the risk that ceasing your ARF would work.