C1 BER House - How to approach upgrades?

[Wandering_Dazed]

TLDR: Recently purchased a Detached House, built 2001, UFCH both floors, currently C1 potential BER A3. What order do I work through things and can I avoid dealing with many different professionals?

Opinions/advice on the following:

1. UFCH: Installed when house was built (ancient). Newish oil condensing boiler, loops are heating up, but the whole system needs upgrading. (Mainfolds, thermostats, pressure test, flushing etc) The expansion vessel has no pressure, and the relief valve in the boiler has been venting. Room stats, controls need upgrading as they are ancient like the rest of the system.
2. As UFCH throughout suited for an upgrade to a Air-Water heatpump but also need doors/windows/attic insulation work as part of the BER report. The walls have rock wool insulation behind the plasterboard against the blocks)
3. Windows double-glazed but need upgrading U values wise (Substantial amount of windows)
4. The doors need updating to higher U values.
5. I want to install Solar panels/battery and eventually an EV wall charger.

I've budget to address all the above, however I've already experienced the Irish way in terms of tradespeople not showing up, not interested and just messing me around.

So, heating priorities first should I just focus on getting a plumber to deal with the basics (expansion vessel, PRV) or work to upgrade the whole system? (Stats, controls, manifolds etc)

Or should I just look into an a heat pump and UFCH upgrade at the same time. Not sure that's a good path until I've addressed the windows/doors and attic U values.

Should I ditch the solar stuff until the above is done?

Been looking at SEAI approved contractors and not confident that those listed can deal with most if not all of the above. Ideally a one stop shop (after several quotes from same) would be great but maybe that's a pipedream.

Happy to be quizzed or admonished, let me know what you from experience would do.

 

[Zenith63]

I’ve done something similar over the last couple of years, so some initial thoughts -

The house needs to have a low heat loss to get the heatpump grant. The process is to get a SEAI approved heatpump technical assessment done first, basically a more detailed version of the BER, do the improvement works and have the heatpump installed, then you get the grant and cost of the technical assessment reimbursed. So if I were you I’d get the heatpump technical assessment done ASAP as it will answer some of your questions.

On the windows/doors, the big companies that do these are generally very good at just getting it done, they’ll show up for a few days and have the job done and dusted. So I would think of this as a job you can get done as soon as you have the money. The improvement in comfort is likely to be significant, so I’d be trying to get it done in the coming 2-3 months so you have the benefit of them over the winter.

Solar is quite like the windows, the team show up and are gone in a couple of days. If you have the money and have made the decision then just get it done, ideally over the winter so you have the benefit of it in Spring/Summer.

As for the heatpump, I could not recommend this more highly, low-and-slow as they operate is a far superior way to heat a home. But by the time you line up technical assessments and installers the winter could be over, so I’d be tempted to get a plumber to do some basic remediation works on your existing setup to get it functioning properly. I wouldn’t bother with replacing manifolds or power flushes as that may be required (for warranty purposes) to be conducted at the heatpump commission stage. FWIW you may have some trouble finding heatpump installers, the SEAI heatpump grant is so paperwork heavy many of them have stopped taking on this work, but they’re out there.

In summary, I would not personally bother with a one-stop-shop because they’re hard to find, expensive and most importantly the works you’re doing are all easily completed as individual jobs.

 

[conor_mc]

Inclined to agree with Zenith63. I was not impressed with one-stop shop pricing, but having a heat pump survey done and taking the time to understand the content/calculations etc is worthwhile. Strongly suggest HeatGeek consumer series on YouTube.

Having been in similar situation:

1) Attic insulation (add 350-400mm) is cheapest win. Can be floored over using stilts/attic boards. DIY job if you’re even moderately handy.
2) Windows/doors next, ideally target u-value to be informed by heat pump survey. Find someone who airtight tapes around the window rather than just screwing them into place (my major regret, knew no better at the time!)
3) Solar/battery - no-brainer in terms of payback, 7-odd years for a 25-30 year system. I put in about 9kWp this summer (decent chunk of that NNE so limited to summer generation) but I’m in process of upgrading 5kWh battery to 15.
4) Next major project is heat pump. Fabric-first approach to grants is crazy, I’m dying to get this done, I’ll save 60% on my carbon emissions without further upgrades, but can’t get grant without a massive external insulation job.
5) EV charging point - unless you’re going to buy an EV (or already have one), I’d hold off. With V2G creeping slowly into the EV market, a bidirectional charger in the future might be a better investment.

 

[Micks'r]

Longterm, the hierarchy should look something like:
1. Building fabric & ventilation improvement (Airtightness, insulation incl thermal bridging reduction, glazing quality and appropriate ventilation) to reduce the overall heat losses/demand as low as feasible
2. Consideration of how to supply the lower level of heat demand as efficiently as possible
3. Eco bling (generally anything grant aided by the SEAI)

Genuine question: What are you looking to achieve; are you looking to improve the BER of the house or your comfort/health living there? (Most people say both but I would prioritise the latter especially if planning on living in the house longterm)

 

[conor_mc]

Longterm, the hierarchy should look something like:
1. Building fabric & ventilation improvement (Airtightness, insulation incl thermal bridging reduction, glazing quality and appropriate ventilation) to reduce the overall heat losses/demand as low as feasible
2. Consideration of how to supply the lower level of heat demand as efficiently as possible
3. Eco bling (generally anything grant aided by the SEAI)

Genuine question: What are you looking to achieve; are you looking to improve the BER of the house or your comfort/health living there? (Most people say both but I would prioritise the latter especially if planning on living in the house longterm)

Re #3 - With the exception of solar PV, which if viable roofspace-wise is likely a no-brainer.

 

[Wandering_Dazed]

Thanks all for the insights, appreciate it.

Genuine question: What are you looking to achieve; are you looking to improve the BER of the house or your comfort/health living there? (Most people say both but I would prioritise the latter especially if planning on living in the house longterm)

Great question, I'm not chasing the BER no. definitely the comfort/health and cost of living in the property. As I'm currently renovating other areas of the house I'm trying to figure out what other major projects to be done before we clutter the place.

I think my approach will be:

1. Get the plumber to sort out the minor issues with the UFCH first so can get through winter.
2. Organise a heat pump survey so can plan what other upgrades to do and U values etc.
3. Upgrade existing attic insulation and the exterior doors
4. Look into some quotes for solar agree that is really a no brainer.
5. Plan to upgrade the windows which are standard upvc double glazing at the moment. That is like to be expensive as there is a lot of them and I assume would be better done in spring/summer
6. Then look into heat pump options in the new year once all insulation/air tightness works. (I'll check out the heating geek series too, someone else recommended that to me too and said the key thing with heat pumps is ensuring the right size/capacity)

 

[Leo]

Find your house type in this reference (2014 version of pdf here) and review the options.

 

[Wandering_Dazed]

Find your house type in this reference (2014 version of pdf here) and review the options.

Thanks @Leo , I found that pdf in a search (which I think you posted previously) and it was very helpful thank you!

After some consideration I've contacted 2 OSS's to see how that process goes. (One responded this morning to book an online consultation)

While I accept what others have posted, as I have the funds to do all the upgrades, the window/door grants, being so busy workwise and already having "fun" trying to get professionals to do other work I decided to see what comes out of those consultations.

Happy to share my findings/quotes here if there is interest?

In the meantime had the plumber out finishing off relocating a sink and quooker tap today. The external boiler pump is "weak" so going to get them to replace that pump and expansion vessel so at least can make it through the winter without freezing.

 

[Cameo]

I've done some similar work myself over the last 2 years or so.

As others have said I'd prioritise getting the technical assessment done foe heat pump grant, this will highlight what areas you need to focus on.

I'd be very selective who I would get to do heat pump, make sure you have someone who'll service it ad well as install it.

Based on my experience, improving airtightness is the most challenging bit as well as getting work done by people with attention to detail

 

[Wandering_Dazed]

As others have said I'd prioritise getting the technical assessment done foe heat pump grant, this will highlight what areas you need to focus on.

Agreed, have taken on the feedback and the energy assessment first is key!

I'd be very selective who I would get to do heat pump, make sure you have someone who'll service it ad well as install it.

My Plumber said exactly the same re. Heat Pump today, that if there were issues post installation and the original installer ran a mile so would everyone else. As then no others would take on repair works as they would be "on the hook" for the entire installation.

However that makes me think, how can I be selective around same? Ensure the person employed heat pump wise is part of a larger company and the kit installed is certified and has a warranty? (Part of me investigating the OSS option was to avoid smaller contractors just putting in any heat pump solution and not standing by it, along with if something went south I'd have a somewhat better recourse.)

100% the technical assessment is first and will form the path forward. If needs be whoever I get to perform the energy assessment will be shared with others.

 

[Zenith63]

My Plumber said exactly the same re. Heat Pump today, that if there were issues post installation and the original installer ran a mile so would everyone else. As then no others would take on repair works as they would be "on the hook" for the entire installation.

I think this is an issue that is going away quickly. 10 years ago there were only 8,000 heatpumps in the country, half of which were esoteric ground-source units. About 25,000 new heatpumps were installed in 2023 alone, the vast majority of which were comparatively simple air-source units.

If you choose a decent brand and an installer that demonstrates they are experienced I don't think you have too much to be worried about, other than the more general issue of how difficult it is to get tradespeople because they are so busy, which will apply to any heating system.

 

[thedaddyman]

My own personal experience of a OSS was awful. Very unreliable and depending on who came out from them, you got their "obsession" and in my experience, none of them had the skillset to look at an entire house holistically and instead just focused on the individuals area of expertise. We ended up going with local contractors across the board for heating controls, solar, external wrap and a few other things. Had to PM the thing ourselves but saved probably €10k in the process before any grants.

Walk the local area and see who is doing what. A busy local contractor is usually a good sign and if you build a relationship with them and you have minor issues, likely to get a better response then ringing an OSS call centre .

Solar is a doddle to install. Just check if scaffolding is needed or if they will do it via ladders. depends on house type etc. We had scaffolding up for the external wrap so it helped.

 

[Wandering_Dazed]

My own personal experience of a OSS was awful. Very unreliable and depending on who came out from them, you got their "obsession" and in my experience, none of them had the skillset to look at an entire house holistically and instead just focused on the individuals area of expertise. We ended up going with local contractors across the board for heating controls, solar, external wrap and a few other things. Had to PM the thing ourselves but saved probably €10k in the process before any grants.

I've seen several people say the same re. OSS on various online sites. With others saying different, suspect it depends on the contractors the OSS places employ. But going to individual contractors mean not accessing grants for Windows and Doors AFAIK which in my situation would help with the overall costs.

Walk the local area and see who is doing what. A busy local contractor is usually a good sign and if you build a relationship with them and you have minor issues, likely to get a better response then ringing an OSS call centre .

I've struggled getting a Leccy and Plumber to do some immediate easy work to date. Emails, WhatsApps and direct calls being answered but ignored on follow up. I have a local lecky and plumber I trust with stuff I know is straightforward but...and nothing against both...I wouldn't be comfortable engaging them in the larger upgrades needed. Maybe I might after the energy assessment but, am I wrong in thinking I have more come back with a larger OSS if their are problems even if they outsource to local contractors? Also in my circumstances I just really don't have time to coordinate multiple contractors at this point and no work is urgent.

Both OSS's reached out to me in 24 hours, one called me while in meeting in work another asked me to book an online consultation (incidentally the one who asked me to upload the BER details). Scheduled a consultation on 1st November will see how that goes, at the least AAM has made me aware of how to deal with them. Energy Assessment/Survey first and take it from there and ignore all the sales peeps waffle.

Solar is a doddle to install. Just check if scaffolding is needed or if they will do it via ladders. depends on house type etc. We had scaffolding up for the external wrap so it helped.

Yep I agree, overall Solar is easy enough to install but as per another thread I commented on, sizing the battery, panels, invertors and other items make it somewhat more complex. I'll dig into that to ensure whatever is advised is accurate.

 

[AJAM]

Solar is easy enough to install but as per another thread I commented on, sizing the battery, panels, invertors and other items make it somewhat more complex.

I think people get unnecessarily, tied up in knots with this. IMO it's pretty simple.
1. Put the max number of panels you can fit on your roof
2. Get a hybrid inverter, so you can easily add a battery later
3. Don't get a hot water diverter (its better to export your solar for 20c during the day and heat your water at 7c during the night)
4. Don't get a battery (The price solar installers are charging for batteries is a complete rip off. You can get them much cheaper elsewhere)

e.g. Here's a 15.5KWh battery for 3K

Fogstar Energy 15.5Kwh 48V Battery

A high-performance 15.5kWh battery designed for UK conditions, featuring intelligent heating, plug-and-play inverter compatibility, an intuitive LCD touchscreen interface, premium Grade A EVE cells, scalable energy storage,

www.fogstar.co.uk

 

[lff12]

Attic insulation is a no brainer in your case, even before you go for OSS. It doesn't sound like the technical assessment and additional supports from OSS would make sense to your case. It sounds like a great candidate for the full upgrade too.

 

[lff12]

I think people get unnecessarily, tied up in knots with this. IMO it's pretty simple.
1. Put the max number of panels you can fit on your roof
2. Get a hybrid inverter, so you can easily add a battery later
3. Don't get a hot water diverter (its better to export your solar for 20c during the day and heat your water at 7c during the night)
4. Don't get a battery (The price solar installers are charging for batteries is a complete rip off. You can get them much cheaper elsewhere)

e.g. Here's a 15.5KWh battery for 3K

Fogstar Energy 15.5Kwh 48V Battery

A high-performance 15.5kWh battery designed for UK conditions, featuring intelligent heating, plug-and-play inverter compatibility, an intuitive LCD touchscreen interface, premium Grade A EVE cells, scalable energy storage,

www.fogstar.co.uk

I'd say yes for this where the boiler upgrade is from oil or gas to heat pump with upgraded wet systems but for upgrades from electric only heating or solid fuel on non wet system there might be other considerations to take with regard to the hot water diverter.
Note - I should add that the advice to NOT get a hot water diverter is only relevant in cases where the user is using anything other than electric immersions. If your primary way of heating hot water is via an electrical immersion boiler tank than absolutely, you should get a diverter if installing PV.

 

[Wandering_Dazed]

It doesn't sound like the technical assessment and additional supports from OSS would make sense to your case. It sounds like a great candidate for the full upgrade too.

@lff12 Could you elaborate more on the above please? Are you making 2 separate points, a) I don't need a tech assessment and b) The overall house sounds like a great candidate for a full upgrade? Or did you mean something else?

With 20+ year old Double Glazing and external doors, my rationale for the OSS approach was to avail of the SEAI grants for same. (Especially as the property has a lot of windows)

I have an Energy Assessment on the property on Wednesday, I can share what the recommendations are once received.

 

[lff12]

@lff12 Could you elaborate more on the above please? Are you making 2 separate points, a) I don't need a tech assessment and b) The overall house sounds like a great candidate for a full upgrade? Or did you mean something else?

With 20+ year old Double Glazing and external doors, my rationale for the OSS approach was to avail of the SEAI grants for same. (Especially as the property has a lot of windows)

I have an Energy Assessment on the property on Wednesday, I can share what the recommendations are once received.

Kind of both - yes, your home sounds like a great candidate for upgrades in general but technical assessment is required for OSS if you want to benefit from the additional funding to address windows and doors. You don't have a choice here.
If you were paying your own way then obviously yes, you would need to pay for windows and doors yourself. The self managed approach doesn't require the technical assessment but it is still recommended. However even that depends on the extent of the advice you've garnered from other professionals along the way. For example I got completely different advice from the assessor who did my last BER and the people who installed my attic insulation.

 

[Wandering_Dazed]

Kind of both - yes, your home sounds like a great candidate for upgrades in general but technical assessment is required for OSS if you want to benefit from the additional funding to address windows and doors.

Thank you makes total sense. In my situation, while I have an insight into insulation, solar and heat pump costs (advice on here, heat geek etc) the house has a substantial amount of noughties era uPVC windows/doors. I expect the cost of upgrading doors/windows to be significant and most likely higher than the other upgrades. Hence I want to avail of those grants.

However even that depends on the extent of the advice you've garnered from other professionals along the way. For example I got completely different advice from the assessor who did my last BER and the people who installed my attic insulation.

Understood and agree that there are different opinions and advice out there it can be super confusing.

Energy survey happening tomorrow, it will be interesting to see what I get back. I also haven't forgotten the rest of the advice in this thread.... will redact and share survey results and quote.

Thanks again everyone, all the advice and insight is very welcome.

 

[Wandering_Dazed]

Received the output of the energy survey today and costings: (Reminder this is for a detached hours of ~192sqm, built 2001 with a lot of uPVC windows an external doors)

Roofs Insulated on Ceiling Mineral Wool 200mm €4186.28

• Roof Vent(s) Soffit
• Insulation & sealing of existing attic hatch

Roofs Roofs Additional Measures €1480.75

• Create access point, insulate and re-seal
• ceiling @ GF level
• Lift & Re-Lay attic flooring

Windows Window Double Glazed Patio Glass French Door (Single Door) €1994.48
Windows Window Triple Glazed Triple glazed with PVC frame (White on white spec.) €19275.13
Windows External Glazed Door Patio Glass French Door (1.4 U-value) €7615.28
Windows External Glazed Door Patio Glass French Door unit @ FF (1.4 U-value) €3928.52
Doors External Door Composite Door €3384.57
Doors External Door PVC Door (1.0 U-value) €1631.85
Primary Heating Air to Water Heat Pump 11KW Air to Water Heat Pump €21081.04

• Remove Existing Boiler
• Pressurise Heating Circuit
• Power Flush
• Magnetic Filter
• Attic Tank & Pipe Lagging
• 200L Water Storage Cylinder
• 2 Zone Pack with Water Zone

Ventilation Structural Air Tightness Airtightness Measure 2 Storey €4109.83
Ventilation Infiltration due to openings Remove Fan or Vent €0.00
Ventilation Infiltration due to openings Seal Open Flue €991.20
Ventilation Infiltration due to openings Seal Chimney €991.20
Ventilation Demand Control Ventilation Demand Control Ventilation System €6019.70
Ventilation Ventilation Additional Measures €2961.50

• DCV Fan unit premium

Renewables Solar PV Panels 2.61kWp Solar PV system. 6 x 435W panels. €6816.00
Project Management Fee - Detached House (WH) including D&A Fee €4050.00

Estimated BER Upgrade Cost including VAT €90,517.33
Estimated total of SEAI Grants €21,852

Estimated Total Cost Net of Grants €68,665.33

Notes:

• The above Solar quote does not include battery, I already pointed out could get more than 6 panels on the roof. Was told the contractor would advise on best system for the house.
• Was informed total cost could be +/- 5%, they check prices weekly etc etc

Any thoughts on the above? I presume more details needed on spec of Heat pump and Solar systems?