Budapest Commercial investment

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dhenquirer

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I am considering investing a commercial investment in Budapest.

I would be going in on the basis of putting up a portion of the c. €1m equity required, around 10-20% - almost like a syndicate.

The promoters are carrying out a refurbishemnt on a 10 storey building, and plan to sell it on in under 2 years with a projected return in the region of 150%.

Is it feasible to think that this property be sold in 2 years, it can be seen at this http://www.younginvestmentgroup.com/properties_commercial_detail.php?id=25 what is the market like for commercial in Budapset, not a market i am familiar with?

Promoters say historically it would have been easy to get individuals to purchase a building like this, but now bringing groups together, has anyone gone into an overseas investment as a part shareholder?

Is commercial as strong in eastern europe as i hear? Are they more immune to the current downturn?
 
You admit you are not familiar with the market & you ask if a resale in two years is feasible, and yet you are looking to put 100k - 200k euros into this project !!!!!. Go away on holiday somewhere peaceful until this feeling passes.
 
i'm looking in particular at commercial in eastern block, as i know there are a good few compnaies relocating out there,.predicted return is strong and i have never gone into anything on a commercial level, it seems interesting. just had conerns.

i haven't written it off, gonna take a trip out there, but wouldn't mind being wiser about what questions to ask etc when i'm out there,

Anyone can look at a building, only touches the tip of the iceberg with what you need to find out
 
i think the plan is to sell at 7.5% yield in 2 years, which i am told is fair considering it's around about where yields are in that area today and there has been a trend for yields to converge with western european countries

but the profit will be made in the fact that it will be genrating €420k rent and the cost to build purchase finance etc will be €3.9m. if sold with €420k rent at 7.5% is €5.6m
 
You might want to have a read of this. Highlighted in red bold the important bit. Doesn't sound like you will have much of a market to sell on to.

Before proceeding you need to scrutinise the 420k euro stated rent. If this figure is pie in the sky then so is the 5.6m valuation.

What is the average rent per m2 in the area and what is the size of the building? If you don't know what these figures are from an INDEPENDENT source then you would be mad to invest 100k into it.




REAL ESTATE
Property market comes to a standstill

04 Jul 2008 bbj.hu

There is little to report on the Hungarian real estate investment market because the market has all but stopped since January 2008, Colliers International said in a press release.
After a record 2007, when the total investment market reached €1.8 billion, this year is set to be a record low year. In the first half of 2008, no institutional grade office building was sold and the activity in the industrial and retail sector has been anemic. Year to date, we have tracked €113 million of transactions in all sectors. The currently known going transactions may increase to volume to € 400 million toward the end of the year, but that will bring the market back to its pre 2003 level, Research Director of Colliers International Budapest Rémi Couture announced. The current transactions were mainly concerning retail properties (36% of ytd volume), industrial sites (35% of ytd the volume) and B class offices (29% of the ytd volume). Most transactions involve ailing properties or redevelopment buildings bought for their future potential. A number of these transactions carried over from 2007!
The main cause for this halt is the ripple impact of the credit crisis. The interest is more expensive and banks are more rigorous with their lending criteria. Foreign buyers, based in markets severely affected by the liquidity crisis (US, Ireland, UK and Spain) are instructed not to buy. Finally, investors, especially the Hungarian ones, have other investment opportunities. A 10 year Hungarian Government Bond offers a yield of 8.56% yield. Hungarian real estate funds cannot justify the purchase of A class office buildings which probably would trade at an average 7% - 7.5%.
In the absence of any transaction, it is hard to comment on the yield evolution. Last year, the average yield for A class office was 6.81%, with prime yield at 5.9%. Based on the echo from current negotiations and valuation activities, we estimate that the yield will increase by 30 to 50 basis points for prime properties and the average market yield will increase by up to 100 basis points.
This is largely due to the higher cost of interest because in the institutional market, we have not seen any pressure on the owners to sell their properties. The absence of investment activity is not a market crush when the supply increases and the demand collapses, leaving owners with empty buildings, thus forcing price downward. The demand for office space is still good (ytd, the vacancy rate and take up were stable) and the quality buildings are leased, or in the process of being leased. Buildings’ cash flows cover the interest expenses of the owners. Hence, no one had yet to urgently sell an A Class property at a discount.”
Meanwhile, investors are still looking for bargain properties and the question is whether or not there will be bargains in the Hungarian institutional real estate market. Versus Warsaw, Prague or Bucharest, Budapest was not the most expensive city in Central Europe. There are two schools of thought as to how the investment market will restart. A bearish view is that the funds, unable to generate the promised return will have to sell properties to generate cash and realize some capital gain while it is still possible. A more bullish view is that owners will be able to wait for a better time and the sale activities will pick up again next year when interest rates start to fall. Both scenarios, unfortunately, are not really dependant on the fundamentals of the Hungarian market and it is therefore difficult to predict which tendency will prevail. One thing that is in the control of local players is the management of supply. It will be key to ensure that the market is not over flooded with new spaces which will bring average rent down, Research Director of Colliers summarized the challenges. (press release)
 
Thanks for that Ringledman.
I apporached promoter about your queries and sent a cut and pasted a copy of the atricle.. it brought up a whole load of issues i would not have thought about.

He stated that the rent that will be achieved will be €11p/m sq. per month, which is under going rate for the area of district 11. He then sent a copy of article and he stated that this property didn't fall into category of building that was in the article.

He noted that as per this article "Most transactions involve ailing properties or redevelopment buildings bought for their future potential" and said this fell into that category.

He said that this was the only real type of building where opportunities lie out there, ones where you can add value.....we shall see
 
Thanks for that Ringledman.

He said that this was the only real type of building where opportunities lie out there, ones where you can add value.....we shall see

He's a sales man. You're just another punter he's trying to earn a commission off. If you don't have experience of comercial property and in particular Hungarian commercial property I'd stay clear of this if I were you.
 
Hi

I invested through these guys on a similar development project in Budapest 2.5 years back, and we sold the building 2 months ago, i made slightly more than the return that had been predicted at the outset of the investment which I obviously am delighted with. it took 8 months longer than had been anticipated due to a planning issue. Before proceeding i would check out the site where the development is set to take place, and ask loads of questions to make sure you are fully comfortable with it, also the article posted above makes some valid points so i would go in with a global view on the situation too, but it worked well for me.
 
Hi

I invested through these guys on a similar development project in Budapest 2.5 years back, and we sold the building 2 months ago, i made slightly more than the return that had been predicted at the outset of the investment which I obviously am delighted with. it took 8 months longer than had been anticipated due to a planning issue. Before proceeding i would check out the site where the development is set to take place, and ask loads of questions to make sure you are fully comfortable with it, also the article posted above makes some valid points so i would go in with a global view on the situation too, but it worked well for me.

Its worth noting that this is Vulcan's first post on AAM. As such there is no way of knowing whether this comment is genuine, at least until Vulcan builds up a credible track record of posting on AAM.
 
At the very least, I'd call a few office rental firms in Budapest and ask them how popular this area is likely to be after Metro 4 is finished.

Although vacancy rates are low, there isn't really a lack of good office space at the minute in Budapest, so I'd have my reservations in relation to this project, which is located far from the centre in a rather unpleasant area. Theoretical rental estimate seems about right though.
 
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