Bit tricky this one for me so wonder if anyone else came across similar. I work in small company, 6 staff, one boss. With the two younger members the boss imo bullies them, no matter what they do its wrong and he tries to intimate them too. Its subtle but works because they don't appear to have much chance to answer back because he can just rid himself of them, being junior, fairly easily and has done so with others in the past. If you have experienced similar I would welcome any guidance in how best to cope?
Boss a bully
- Thread starter tomthumb
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tomthumb said:
Bullying can destroy your self esteem and mental health. The best approach is to look for a job were employees are treated with respect. In the meantime, keep a detailed diary of incidents, in case it comes to a tribunal or court but quite honestly looking elsewhere is better.
DrMoriarty
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I think the OP is referring to the bullying of others:
See also
It's a delicate one, since you don't want to appear (a) patronising or (b) to be trying to instigate something while keeping your own nose clean... but you could discreetly (or even anonymously) give them a copy of something like [broken link removed] or this?
See also
My first boss was a bully. We were all afraid of him (3 staff) ...he was forever telling us how we were lucky to have jobs and how we should be grateful to him for giving us an oppertunity (trainee accountants) ...despite the fact he was paying us peanuts. He would shout and roar at us if he was having a bad day, insult us at every hands turn, always complaining that we were costing him money. I had previously worked in a cafe as a stopgap job after college and I got that thrown at me on a regular basis...ie would I like to go back to it?..I lost count of the number of times I left the office in tears.
Finally with the encouragement of a friend after one particular incident I got myself a new job and I'll never forget the satisfaction of telling the w**ker that I was leaving.
..but he had given me a small increase the previous month...and reduced my salary back once I told him I was leaving ...low life
My last boss (8 years on) was also a bully but as I was older and wiser I was well able to stand up to him...over time we actually formed a very good working relationship. He'd throw out comments such as " aren't you lucky I gave you a job" to which I'd reply "aren't you lucky you have such a great worker" etc.
I always advised the younger staff coming in from college to stick up for themselves with him.(I'd take them aside for a private chat)...that if they felt they were unfairly treated to express this to him in a calm and rational manner..I'd tell them there was no point in complaining about it to me then kowtowing to him. My prime example to them was a guy who had worked there for donkeys years and in his late 30's would ask how high when roared at to jump....a very pathetic sight
The only thing I can advise you to do is have a word with these two employees and encourage them to either stand up to your boss or start looking for another job.
Finally with the encouragement of a friend after one particular incident I got myself a new job and I'll never forget the satisfaction of telling the w**ker that I was leaving.
..but he had given me a small increase the previous month...and reduced my salary back once I told him I was leaving ...low lifeMy last boss (8 years on) was also a bully but as I was older and wiser I was well able to stand up to him...over time we actually formed a very good working relationship. He'd throw out comments such as " aren't you lucky I gave you a job" to which I'd reply "aren't you lucky you have such a great worker" etc.
I always advised the younger staff coming in from college to stick up for themselves with him.(I'd take them aside for a private chat)...that if they felt they were unfairly treated to express this to him in a calm and rational manner..I'd tell them there was no point in complaining about it to me then kowtowing to him. My prime example to them was a guy who had worked there for donkeys years and in his late 30's would ask how high when roared at to jump....a very pathetic sight
The only thing I can advise you to do is have a word with these two employees and encourage them to either stand up to your boss or start looking for another job.
Thanks for your input. Having read DrMoriarty's links I recognise many of the listed examples, ie. intimidation,humiliation,intrusion,impossible tasks and deadlines,etc and when Clubman, I say subtle, I mean he doesn't exactly lift them by the shoulders and shake them but verbally intimidates. Its one of the marks of a good bully that others can be slow to acknowledge its even happening until its too late and the damage done. I will deal with it by speaking to the two involved as per Kiddo, giving them my support and try to arm them to cope for the moment. They both have spoken to both me and boss (both separately, not even knowing the other was upset so that is another reason I recognise it as serious). Thanks again and hopefully the New Year may bring change!
Hey Tom,
IMO, every1 is guilty, the boss for instigating, the juniors for not standing up for the natural right and the onlookers (you and the 4 others) for not interveening.
That said the only thing you can truly affect is you position in relation to the incident. If you feel it is injust you gotta follow your convictions.
First you need to get your boss's thoughts, maybe he does not even realise it is happening, also explain how it makes YOU feel uncomfortable.
If it continues, either deal with it! (harsh but true) or make a moral standing (and potentially/eventually leave).
It would be, maybe, inappropiate to appraoch the young ones. (unless they approach you)
The issue is not you are being bullied, but you think you boss is acting unethically, and therefore is a matter between you and your boss.
Direct and honest approach always IMO
IMO, every1 is guilty, the boss for instigating, the juniors for not standing up for the natural right and the onlookers (you and the 4 others) for not interveening.
That said the only thing you can truly affect is you position in relation to the incident. If you feel it is injust you gotta follow your convictions.
First you need to get your boss's thoughts, maybe he does not even realise it is happening, also explain how it makes YOU feel uncomfortable.
If it continues, either deal with it! (harsh but true) or make a moral standing (and potentially/eventually leave).
It would be, maybe, inappropiate to appraoch the young ones. (unless they approach you)
The issue is not you are being bullied, but you think you boss is acting unethically, and therefore is a matter between you and your boss.
Direct and honest approach always IMO
ClubMan said:
I hope you are not being fascetious, Clubman. This is actually a very serious issue for people, and one that is taken very seriously legally. Everybody has a right to dignity at work. Are you being deliberately targeted and humiliated? Or is it a general 'overworked and underpaid' comment as everybody complains of now and again?
Having worked in an environment where I was seriously bullied for 2 1/2 years, I'm going to address some of the comments below.
The first and most important thing to remember in all of this with regards to being a bully is that you cannot expect to continue your career in a company where you report someone for bullying.
You may come out on top, and "win", but you're never going to be a winner in that company after making the complaint.
The best you can hope for if you follow any course of action is to come out on top yourself personally. In my situation, this was being paid to resign (redundancy) and a committment to proper reference.
Some people may jump up and down at this given our labour laws and all the rest of it, but facts of life are that if you make a complaint about anyone in a company, you're a marked person after that.
Apologies for the long post by the way, but I've a lot to say
I strongly isagree with your opinion. There is only one guilty person here. And that is the manager. You can't be guilty of bullying by accepting it and "not standing up for the natural right" - that's a ridiculous thing to say.
As for not intervening, it is my opinion that this is the last thing that anyone should do in such a situation (even if invited). The most likely situation for the person that intervenes is that one or both sides will turn on them for interfering, or getting in the way, or sticking their noses in.
Feelings, I'm afraid, have absolutely nothing to do with anything here. For example, you go to your boss and say that his/her actions make you "feel" uncomfortable, he/she could very well respond with an equally useless comment like "well, I feel that you're overreacting". Hasn't gotten anyone anywhere, but now the boss is aware that you've an issue with them. And if they weren't aware of what they were doing, they now have a reason to make things worse - on purpose this time now.
This is a very tricky thing, and as I said above, you should generally not get involved. As I said, you're likely to end up on the wrong side eventually. Picture a situation where someone goes into their boss, on your advice to speak with their bullying boss. He rejects their comments, and their only fall back is "but Joe outside said that you should listen to me and that you're wrong to be bullying me" - bingo, you're not on the sh1t list as well.
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. If a boss is bullying someone, "direct and honest" is the last thing that will work with them. In most cases where a boss is bullying you, it's most likely to make things worse.
If you are being bullied, what I would suggest are the following.
Firstly, read your companies policy regarding bullying in your staff handbook. Become intimitely aware of what it says, what it allows for, and how the process operates if you feel you are being bullied. This is key because this is what the company/manager will use as a means of defence as well. It's their game, and their rules, and you need to be aware of how this works and to understand how to use their rules in your own favour.
Secondly, and most importantly, before doing or saying anything to anyone, is keep a listing/diary of each and every event where you have been bullied.
Not where you "feel" you've been bullied, but where your manager has gone against the companies policies. Keep dates, times, witnesses, and the specifics of what was said and done, and specifics of how the bully contravened the companys policy. You should detail also how you addressed each situation - comments you made to try to make things better/easier etc. And then, if it occurs, most importantly, how the bully may have continued even though they were given a reasonable way of stopping it.
The next step is most probably the hardest. Who do you go to? If it's detailed in the company handbook, then follow those procedures. If it means going to the HR department, do that - find someone there you have most confidence in. If it means going to another senior manager, then again, find someone you have confidence in. Don't get into the politics of the company - it's not a good idea to go to someone just because you know they don't like the person who's bullying you. That just involves their issues in your own personal situation.
In my own situation, I found a senior manager in a different area of the company who I knew well, and knew would be able to listen, give guidance, and help me with next steps. This was done on the basis of committing to not getting them involved - no need for them to be.
I followed company procedures, made my complaint to HR and waited to see what happened. I held back on the minute specifics, but just reported incidents - dates/times/actions. This was on the advice of the senior manager. The thinking was that the automatic and most likely ill-prepared comeback of the bullying manager would be to ridicule it, say nothing happened, and try to belittle the situation.
With the comeback of specifics to all of the incidents reported, the bullying manager didn't have a leg to stand on. The inclusion of witnesses to the incidents was the clincher in my situation. They weren't involved at all - they would have known that nothing was happening - but the fact that management, HR, and the bullying manager knew that other people had witnessed the incidents gave significant weight to my complaint.
How companies react after that is down to them, and I can only speak from my own experience. To keep everyone happy, I was offered a generous redundancy package (which was exactly what suited me), and I walked. I would have walked anyway, so getting the money to go was a bonus.
As for my bullying boss, I know from ex-colleagues that she's now been sidelined from the managerial position she was in to being a manager with no team and no responsibilities - the companys way of easing her out as well to make sure she doesn't do it again.
The first and most important thing to remember in all of this with regards to being a bully is that you cannot expect to continue your career in a company where you report someone for bullying.
You may come out on top, and "win", but you're never going to be a winner in that company after making the complaint.
The best you can hope for if you follow any course of action is to come out on top yourself personally. In my situation, this was being paid to resign (redundancy) and a committment to proper reference.
Some people may jump up and down at this given our labour laws and all the rest of it, but facts of life are that if you make a complaint about anyone in a company, you're a marked person after that.
Apologies for the long post by the way, but I've a lot to say
drop-d said:
I strongly isagree with your opinion. There is only one guilty person here. And that is the manager. You can't be guilty of bullying by accepting it and "not standing up for the natural right" - that's a ridiculous thing to say.
As for not intervening, it is my opinion that this is the last thing that anyone should do in such a situation (even if invited). The most likely situation for the person that intervenes is that one or both sides will turn on them for interfering, or getting in the way, or sticking their noses in.
drop-d said:
Feelings, I'm afraid, have absolutely nothing to do with anything here. For example, you go to your boss and say that his/her actions make you "feel" uncomfortable, he/she could very well respond with an equally useless comment like "well, I feel that you're overreacting". Hasn't gotten anyone anywhere, but now the boss is aware that you've an issue with them. And if they weren't aware of what they were doing, they now have a reason to make things worse - on purpose this time now.
drop-d said:
This is a very tricky thing, and as I said above, you should generally not get involved. As I said, you're likely to end up on the wrong side eventually. Picture a situation where someone goes into their boss, on your advice to speak with their bullying boss. He rejects their comments, and their only fall back is "but Joe outside said that you should listen to me and that you're wrong to be bullying me" - bingo, you're not on the sh1t list as well.
drop-d said:
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. If a boss is bullying someone, "direct and honest" is the last thing that will work with them. In most cases where a boss is bullying you, it's most likely to make things worse.
If you are being bullied, what I would suggest are the following.
Firstly, read your companies policy regarding bullying in your staff handbook. Become intimitely aware of what it says, what it allows for, and how the process operates if you feel you are being bullied. This is key because this is what the company/manager will use as a means of defence as well. It's their game, and their rules, and you need to be aware of how this works and to understand how to use their rules in your own favour.
Secondly, and most importantly, before doing or saying anything to anyone, is keep a listing/diary of each and every event where you have been bullied.
Not where you "feel" you've been bullied, but where your manager has gone against the companies policies. Keep dates, times, witnesses, and the specifics of what was said and done, and specifics of how the bully contravened the companys policy. You should detail also how you addressed each situation - comments you made to try to make things better/easier etc. And then, if it occurs, most importantly, how the bully may have continued even though they were given a reasonable way of stopping it.
The next step is most probably the hardest. Who do you go to? If it's detailed in the company handbook, then follow those procedures. If it means going to the HR department, do that - find someone there you have most confidence in. If it means going to another senior manager, then again, find someone you have confidence in. Don't get into the politics of the company - it's not a good idea to go to someone just because you know they don't like the person who's bullying you. That just involves their issues in your own personal situation.
In my own situation, I found a senior manager in a different area of the company who I knew well, and knew would be able to listen, give guidance, and help me with next steps. This was done on the basis of committing to not getting them involved - no need for them to be.
I followed company procedures, made my complaint to HR and waited to see what happened. I held back on the minute specifics, but just reported incidents - dates/times/actions. This was on the advice of the senior manager. The thinking was that the automatic and most likely ill-prepared comeback of the bullying manager would be to ridicule it, say nothing happened, and try to belittle the situation.
With the comeback of specifics to all of the incidents reported, the bullying manager didn't have a leg to stand on. The inclusion of witnesses to the incidents was the clincher in my situation. They weren't involved at all - they would have known that nothing was happening - but the fact that management, HR, and the bullying manager knew that other people had witnessed the incidents gave significant weight to my complaint.
How companies react after that is down to them, and I can only speak from my own experience. To keep everyone happy, I was offered a generous redundancy package (which was exactly what suited me), and I walked. I would have walked anyway, so getting the money to go was a bonus.
As for my bullying boss, I know from ex-colleagues that she's now been sidelined from the managerial position she was in to being a manager with no team and no responsibilities - the companys way of easing her out as well to make sure she doesn't do it again.
I feel bullied here in my job and have been in tears a lot over the past year. I've really fought my corner but I feel exausted. It's a losing battle, and I agree with Ronan, you can't take a case and stay. Another girl here did and her life is a misery, even though she was 100% in the right. My Christmas wish is for a new job next year.
I will be sad to leave after 8 years but his behaviour is getting worse and I really hate coming in here every day.
It's a very difficult situation to watch Tomthumb. I hope the people get away from him soon as it's unlikely he will change. It doesn't matter how tough the person is, bullying really does affect you.
I will be sad to leave after 8 years but his behaviour is getting worse and I really hate coming in here every day.
It's a very difficult situation to watch Tomthumb. I hope the people get away from him soon as it's unlikely he will change. It doesn't matter how tough the person is, bullying really does affect you.
I also agree with everything Ronan said. I stood up to my bully and he got 10 times worse. Thankfully I'm out of the situation now (although not yet over the experience). As for the bully - he was promoted to a HR job!! I'm hoping that will expose his behaviour to people who can fire him as I'm only one of about 5 or 6 people (that I know of) that he seriously bullied over a number of years.
If he's not fired, I hope he's involved in a serious accident that leaves him in agony for the rest of his miserable little life.
If he's not fired, I hope he's involved in a serious accident that leaves him in agony for the rest of his miserable little life.
I used to get real annoyed and upset at work..I work with a guy who gives me zero respect.
In fact he respects very few people he deals with.It has made him a celebrity of sorts as people joke about having to approach him for information.....Even managemnet know what he is like.....
I asked him a question once and he turned around and shouted "Get away from me"..All this happened in front of my manger.Not an eye lid was batted....I just stood up and said "I am not taking this" and went home...
In fact he respects very few people he deals with.It has made him a celebrity of sorts as people joke about having to approach him for information.....Even managemnet know what he is like.....
I asked him a question once and he turned around and shouted "Get away from me"..All this happened in front of my manger.Not an eye lid was batted....I just stood up and said "I am not taking this" and went home...
Ronan, i get your take on this, but you are wrong, about your advise and the context.
Tom actually posted this thread about others being bullied not him!
Anyway, if people dont stand up to bullies as a principle, then they will continue to bully others! and therefore the cycle continues due to the fact that the bully will pick on the next person!!
STAND up to bullies, make your play.....frankly staying shut and accepting it is weak in my book and you are not thinking of the future, the other people that will be bullied.....
And fuk it! if your job is made hell cos you have morals..........YOUR IN THE WRONG JOB!
Leave, dont whinge about it!
I always stand up to bullys when people try to intimidate me.... and im fast to stand up on other peoples behalf too, many people dont like me, i dont go woth the flow, but where i am concerned my surrounding group knows i know the rules and laws backward and we run a clean shop!
FFS, you can also go to the high court or labour court about this not to mention the european court of human rights!!!
DONT TAKE IT!! Get a bit if backbone people!
Tom actually posted this thread about others being bullied not him!
Anyway, if people dont stand up to bullies as a principle, then they will continue to bully others! and therefore the cycle continues due to the fact that the bully will pick on the next person!!
STAND up to bullies, make your play.....frankly staying shut and accepting it is weak in my book and you are not thinking of the future, the other people that will be bullied.....
And fuk it! if your job is made hell cos you have morals..........YOUR IN THE WRONG JOB!
Leave, dont whinge about it!
I always stand up to bullys when people try to intimidate me.... and im fast to stand up on other peoples behalf too, many people dont like me, i dont go woth the flow, but where i am concerned my surrounding group knows i know the rules and laws backward and we run a clean shop!
FFS, you can also go to the high court or labour court about this not to mention the european court of human rights!!!
DONT TAKE IT!! Get a bit if backbone people!
Have to say that there would seem to me to be some happy medium between wallowing in/buying into the whole victim mentality/attitude and actually doing something constructive to deal with the problematic situation in situ or, if necessary, by choosing a different/better situation. This applies in many different situations - workplace/job, relationship, community etc. I'm not saying that this is always easy but in many cases we are in situations of our own making/choosing (whether we choose to face up to this or not) but still have power to influence/change these.
drop-d said:
Thanks drop-d, I appreciate this. Hence my comments directed towards whether or not to intervene. My other comments were directed to a more general audience and further comments regarding bullying which were in the thread.
As for my advice being wrong, I don't believe that you can make any such judgements on my experience, and hence my advice from experience. If you've found otherwise, and it's worked out nicely for you, please let us know.
drop-d said:
I don't think I ever said anything about not standing up to bullies. What I did say was that when you do approach the situation, that you do it in a considered and well researched manner.
As for the rest of your comments, a little over the top I reckon. I would consider them a little along the lines of "bull in the china shop" type tactics, going in with all guns blazing. And as others have agreed with my comments, we can only leave it by saying that different people have different ways of handling things.
To be honest, based on the whole tone of your post, it have very strong "bullying" tones to it in itself - first person here I've ever seen try to enfoce a comment with "FFS". Unnecessary.
I have an opinion, so I can't be "wrong". People can differ with my opinion, fair enough. Please respect that and debate, not attack.
ronan, i am just concerned judging by the overall comments left here that Tom will do nothing about his predicament.
I think the general comments left here are by bullied people (as most of ye have pointed out) and are therefore not objective. I am providing the other side, the side where people work in a place where there is no bullying, and NEVER will it be accepted.
There is no bullying there cos we wouldnt allow it!
Simple
I just get pretty annoyed at peeps here putting their career into the same boat as the bullying to "decide" what to do. It should never get to that stage.
What kind of constructive advice is this
Not to mention commenting on my colloqulial sayings, FFS!
If i am a "bull in a china shop" then you are a "pansy in a garden centre", and by default, who has been bullied here? Not me, but you have, how are you so sure i am not right in what i say or my approach!
I think the general comments left here are by bullied people (as most of ye have pointed out) and are therefore not objective. I am providing the other side, the side where people work in a place where there is no bullying, and NEVER will it be accepted.
There is no bullying there cos we wouldnt allow it!
Simple
I just get pretty annoyed at peeps here putting their career into the same boat as the bullying to "decide" what to do. It should never get to that stage.
What kind of constructive advice is this
But hey, not only that, but if you are bullied....ignore it, let them be bullied!!
Yes you have your opinion and me mine, Clubman perhaps put it more elequently than i but i dont appreciate YOUR tone in assuming my comments are over the top, or your analogy to "bull in a china shop" or suggesting that i am trying to bully people myself in this post??
Not to mention commenting on my colloqulial sayings, FFS!
If i am a "bull in a china shop" then you are a "pansy in a garden centre", and by default, who has been bullied here? Not me, but you have, how are you so sure i am not right in what i say or my approach!
actually i agree with Ronan and I work in H&S in a company.
All of his steps are the correct ones.
For example,
Tom thumb mentions that he reckons boss is bullying the 2 guys a bit - Tom Thumb has now made a serious allegation and 2 guys may not have documentation to back up or may just mumble "not me sir" and shuffle off, Tom thumb is now out on a limb.
There is nothing Tom Thumb can do if he likes his own job TBH. Except maybe direct them to this page and hope they have the wit to put 2 and 2 together.
This is why bullying and lack of "dignity" in the workplace is so common, it is hard to get clear cut examples with witnesses and often is open to interpretation.
All of his steps are the correct ones.
For example,
Tom thumb mentions that he reckons boss is bullying the 2 guys a bit - Tom Thumb has now made a serious allegation and 2 guys may not have documentation to back up or may just mumble "not me sir" and shuffle off, Tom thumb is now out on a limb.
There is nothing Tom Thumb can do if he likes his own job TBH. Except maybe direct them to this page and hope they have the wit to put 2 and 2 together.
This is why bullying and lack of "dignity" in the workplace is so common, it is hard to get clear cut examples with witnesses and often is open to interpretation.
ronan_d_john said:
Nemo me impune lacessit
Nelly, you are right, i suggested however dealing with it and staying quiet or make a stand against it.
Only considering your beliefs, and not your career, as other people have suggested. Id rather change jobs and keep my moral ground, than submit to things i know are wrong for the sake of a paycheck.
But thats only my opinion.