bias in the work force against those with no kids

I don't think people should take on something as an "excuse" to leave the office. You don't need an excuse to leave at your contracted time.

I agree with the point, people are either "sickies" or not.

We all have our personal lives and what is done outside of office hours is really none of the employers business, or concern.

Persius said:

Well good luck to you if that's the way it does work out - and I mean this genuinly. However the possibility of redundancy should never be ruled out. A company I worked for went bust. First a merger and the local sales and marketing staff were let go. Then wage freezes and finaly redundancy. I can't complain as we got a good payoff, and I got a new job straight away. But having experienced that, you realise that a "job for life" is very rare in the private sector.

I don't know about Switzerland, but I've seen plenty of redundancies (often with dirty tricks) in Germany where employee rights are generally considered to be strong.

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Thanks Persius,
The sentiment is appreciated. I wasnt trying to be glib about the "absolutely yes", the fact of the matter is my DH and I have no family near us and DH works in the next county. So should a baby arrive I would be the only person to pick him or her up. I wouldnt expect special treatment (half days/leaving early etc) but I would expect to leave at leaving time. Maternity leave is short here (14 weeks) and the thought of leaving a young baby (or young child) in a creche after 6pm while I take a meeting/monitor a build/review test plans is not bearable for me. Im a firm believer in quality vs. quantity. Its better to work 8 high-quality hours than 10 or 11 hours of variable quality. Something I have been working on the last few years is focusing more quality and if I do have to do overtime I really ask myself - why? Is this because of me (could I have worked more efficiently at the beginning)? Is it because of my PM (and not scheduling correctly)? Or is simply called for on this occasion? I have found it an interesting exercise to date.

If I get made redundant so be it, luckily support in Switzerland (while poor for maternity leave) is excellent for redundancy. I have worked hard for my organization for over a decade, I do feel it would be their loss. Also as mentioned earlier on this thread, working late consistently is a cultural thing, children or no children most Swiss have left the office by 6pm.

I used 'excuse' in parenthesis as that's how it seems some people are see others' children. I don't consider it an excuse, but then it's not up for discussion. I have to collect my son. Occasionally I'll actually bring him back to the office if I really need to get something finished that can't be done form home, but really, how fair would that be if it was a regular thing? His day is also long enough already.
We are saying the same thing really; that girl arranged her work hours with management so that her life would not encroach on her work. Otherwise she would have been potentially late in the mornings, or watching the clock and racing out the door to make creche closing time, or even lost her creche place over repeated tardiness. That she was unfortunate to have a poorly child is beside the point really.

Mel said:

I used 'excuse' in parenthesis as that's how it seems some people are see others' children. I don't consider it an excuse, but then it's not up for discussion. I have to collect my son. Occasionally I'll actually bring him back to the office if I really need to get something finished that can't be done form home, but really, how fair would that be if it was a regular thing? His day is also long enough already.
We are saying the same thing really; that girl arranged her work hours with management so that her life would not encroach on her work. Otherwise she would have been potentially late in the mornings, or watching the clock and racing out the door to make creche closing time, or even lost her creche place over repeated tardiness. That she was unfortunate to have a poorly child is beside the point really.

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Unfortunately, the crux of it is that there is a business to run and constant absenteeism was causing a problem, being a team member down. We are a very small group of six so every person is needed all the time.

In the case of the girl in our office, her child had a bout of sickness, but to be fair most employers would not keep on someone who had over three weeks "sick" in the first three months. The fact that her husband was unwilling or unable to take time off from his work did not help either.

I sell build / release software which can automate all that work you're doing and then you won't have to do over time! Send me a PM!

Yes, unfortunately smaller companies are usually less family-friendly because they just can't afford to be. You're right, it's hard to make a good impression in a new job if you're unfortunate enough to have something like that happen so early on. The poor girl had to make the choice between leaving a sick child with someone else (maybe there was nobody else) or keeping her new job.
Her husband not taking the time off is just another one of the challenges facing working mothers - often it's the mother's job that is seen as less valuable or essential for the family, and she will then be the one to take time off if the children are ill.

There's an interesting article on this subject here:
http://www.unmarriedamerica.org/News-About-Us/Childless_workers_feeling_resentment.htm

and another one here:
http://www.hollandsentinel.com/stories/072104/new_072104005.shtml

Again, like people have been saying all along, it seems to come down to management putting good policies in place, rather than harbouring resentment for your colleagues which won't solve anything.

There is only 24 hours in a day. You are paid to work 8 hours a day. you do not owe your employer any more than this unless they are prepared to pay you for it. This is why it's called compensation. You are being compensated for giving your precious time. You cannot buy your time back once it's sold to your employer. Remember, you will be dead in a few years so use your time wisely

Getting back to the general point raised right at the start of this thread, yes I believe that there is bias towards parents. But I don't envy them (at the minute anyway).

In work I see many cases of parents being allowed to do things that non-parents aren't:

-time off at very short notice
-being allowed to 'nip out for an hour' during work
-go to doctors appts
-phone in sick more often


Sort of comparable to smokers, who get several 10 min breaks during the day that non-smokers would get moaned at if they sat with their feet up at their desk.

RMCF said:

Sort of comparable to smokers, who get several 10 min breaks during the day that non-smokers would get moaned at if they sat with their feet up at their desk.

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Not really.
I've never seen a situation where smokers were taking more breaks than non-smokers - any smokers I know (and I'm one myself) tend to take their smokebreaks when general breaks are given - ie if there's an 11 o clock coffee break for 10-15 minutes, they use this to nip out for a smoke and same again for lunchtime or the afternoon break, whereas other non-smoking workers may use this time to pop to the shop if there's one nearby or sit and have a cuppa in the canteen. In fact I've never seen smokers taking any more breaks than non-smokers in any job I've ever been in.

I'm sure if a non-parent needed to the visit the doctor they wouldn't be prevented from doing so by their employer, just because they have no kids? I don't see the link.

Trafford said:

I'm sure if a non-parent needed to the visit the doctor they wouldn't be prevented from doing so by their employer, just because they have no kids? I don't see the link.

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I think that parents will have more doctors appointments though. Their own and their kids in comparison to someone with no kids who will only have their own.

As somone who has to be the main "picker upper" due to my partners work I find that I don't and won't have as many oppurtunities as my other half. I stayed at home with my daughter for a while and work in a 9-5 Mon-Fri job as he works irregular hours. I have found that his ability to do this has lead to promotion and regular payrises. I have to be out of work by 5.30 and can't drop the kiddo off til 9 so can't go in early.
Now, this isn't an issue for me. I'm happy to do it but it does show that while those with kids may be able to leave at their scheduled time and have the "perks" of being able to take time off to be with a child at short notice etc it does have the knock on effect that we are not noticed for the work we do and are passed over for promotion until our kids are older and managment know we won't need to be rushing home at the designated hour.