Better options than cash on deposit

cremeegg

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Background

I have some savings (€190k) which I have held on deposit for the last few years. The money is intended to finance my 4 children through college.

That will (I hope) start in 2 years time and run for 11 years after that.

I am concerned that having the money on deposit is "wasteful" and I would like a better return.

I have been quite risk adverse with this money so far and this is not to be a big change.

I have some buy to let property and am not looking to go any further down that road.

I also have a bit of a fear of professional advisors. I consider them sales people for the products they stock. And even a fee-based advisor is basically working from that template.

Next Steps

I have been advised to buy 5 Blue chip shares.

How would I choose what 5.

What type of decision process is needed to choose 5.

Or I suppose in principle if markets are efficient it should not matter what 5, and there is no choosing involved.

Or is there any different advice I should follow.

Thanks for any suggestions
 
Well first of all you need to break the amount down into lots - money that will be needed to in the next 5 years or so needs to remain in cash or near cash products.

Advising someone to buy 5 blue chips, when the know little about stock investing is not great advice in my opinion. A split between a couple of large cap ETFs would probably be a better choice something like the http://uk.ishares.com/en/rc/stream/pdf/false/publish/repository/documents/dffs_comit/dub/CURRENT/PDF/FFS_EQ_CSSX5E_IE00B53L3W79_GB_en.pdf (STOXX 50), http://uk.ishares.com/en/rc/stream/pdf/false/publish/repository/documents/dffs_comit/dub/CURRENT/PDF/FFS_EQ_CSINDU_IE00B53L4350_GB_en.pdf (DOW) or perhaps the SMI.

You should also look into the tax implications of investing...
 
If you were going for this option, I'd go for more than 5 shares. The main reason for choosing 5 would be to reduce trading costs for someone investing a total of somewhere in the region of €10k - €15k. With €190k to invest, you could easily just go for 19 shares with €10k in each and trading costs wouldn't be too much of a concern.

If I were doing something along these lines, I'd avoid too much investigation into individual shares and try to automate it. This would avoid having to keep up-to-date on 19 companies and would also avoid you getting spooked and selling when one drops for no apparent reason (which, by the way, is highly likely if you only invest in 5 shares).

I'd use some variation of the Dogs of the Dow strategy using European shares - which would eliminate currency risk.

An example of an automated strategy I'd use would be to sort the Eurostoxx 50 by dividend yield, ignore the top two and invest equally in the next 19.

My reasoning would be that the top dividend yielders may be the result of the share price in the companies dropping due to some valid reason. Of course, you could investigate the top two and invest in them if you thought they represented good value but, for an automated strategy, I'd ignore them.

The list, sorted by yield, can be found here:

[broken link removed]

As far as I can see, ignoring the top 2 and investing in the next 19 would give an average yield of 3.68% - about €7k on your €190k investment (subject to income tax).

After each year, I'd resort the list and make sure I'm still holding the correct selection of 19 shares. Usually, most of your shares will remain - but some will need replacing - incurring some trading commissions (but not enough to worry too much about if you've €10k invested in every share).

Of course, selling some may result in capital gains tax because a share that's yield has reduced enough to drop it out of your list usually implies that the share price has risen significantly. The good side of this is that you will be able to use your annual CGT allowance - it's worth €419.10 (€1270 * 33%) in reduced taxes annually.

Another option worth looking at would be gifting the money to your children now. The gift would fall below the taxable threshold for CAT and the result would be that any dividend income would be taxed at their marginal rate as opposed to yours - which may be nil. Of course, this could only be done if you 100% trusted them all not to leave college and squander the money :)
 
A split between a couple of large cap ETFs would probably be a better choice something like the http://uk.ishares.com/en/rc/stream/pdf/false/publish/repository/documents/dffs_comit/dub/CURRENT/PDF/FFS_EQ_CSSX5E_IE00B53L3W79_GB_en.pdf (STOXX 50), http://uk.ishares.com/en/rc/stream/pdf/false/publish/repository/documents/dffs_comit/dub/CURRENT/PDF/FFS_EQ_CSINDU_IE00B53L4350_GB_en.pdf (DOW) or perhaps the SMI.

I also agree with this. If someone wanted a completely hands-off approach, a Eurostoxx 50 ETF, or similar, is a good option.

The things I don't like about the ETF's include the 'deemed-disposal' treatment, the fact that the dividend yield of the Eurostoxx 50 will be almost 1% lower than using the above method of selecting 19 and, also, there is reduced flexibility.

For example, if I own 19 shares, I can sell a loser and a gainer and offset the loss in one against the gain in another before calculating CGT. This, in combination with your annual tax-free allowance may even remove your liability to tax completely.

The method of choosing individual shares works REALLY well for someone who has sold an investment property that has made a significant loss as they are unlikely to ever have CGT to pay - or at least not for a VERY long time. However, I don't believe the OP falls into this category.
 
How much do you need to put your kids through college? If you have enough, why take risks with your money at this late stage, you have already achieved your goal.

And not a product in sight. :rolleyes:


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie
 
I have been quite risk adverse with this money so far and this is not to be a big change.

II also have a bit of a fear of professional advisors. I consider them sales people for the products they stock. And even a fee-based advisor is basically working from that template.

. This would avoid having to keep up-to-date on 19 companies and would also avoid you getting spooked and selling when one drops for no apparent reason (which, by the way, is highly likely if you only invest in 5 shares).

As it happens I'm in a similar quandry to Cremeegg. Totally risk adverse, and mistrustful of advisors. I think Ronaldo's reply there sums it up for me, not sure if it does for Cremeegg. Then when the experts on here give their advice I totally get lost.

About 2 weeks ago I went to my bank for advice for what to do with my non performing deposits. The very first thing she did was fill out my risk profile, based on multiple questions. As expected totally risk adverse, which I knew before we even started.

This bit from their documentation:

The European legislator also sets out a number of requirements, including that when providing advice a bank has to take account of your financial situaitonn, your knowledge of an experience with investments, your investment objectives and your attitude to risk. (This bank operates also in Ireland) I

There are four categories of risk pofitle and interestingly enough I wasn't the 'highly defensive' but Defensive, next up is Dynamic, and then Highly dynamic.

This risk assessment document has to be signed by me and my husband and returned to the bank.

The advisor has prepared some ideas for me. So we started off with deposits, which is basically pointless. There is no way I'd ever dare buy 5 blue chip shares as per Burgess's suggestion, never mind pick 19 as per Ronaldos idea. Would get totally spooked if they started to go down. And would not be able to resist checking their value. Both my parents have invested in shares. One bought 5 shares, lost out big time. And was forced to sell at another time because the money was needed. The other parents made a lot, lost a fortune and is back at it. Not what I would consider a gamble but obviously has the never and brain for it. Much like the profile of Burgess, Jim and Ronaldo.

The product I'm now considering is a portfolio, it's got 4 asset types, bonds, equity, other asset types and cash. Then there are 5 types of bond, government, 32 % corporate, index, other, emerging markets .01%. There's currency allocation, 10, from Euro 62% to CHF .85% (Swiss I guess), Theren there are about 10 sectors, and finally Geographic allocation. So naturally enough I'm totally lost. Will be interesting to see what Cremeegg is offered.

The above product has a risk of losing 5% of the capital. Their is no tax on any gain, unlike deposits here. Since it's launch it's made 3.21%. There is an entry cost of 3.5% - negotiatable. Annual costs of around €125 Euro, and can withdraw at any time. And I cannot make a decision on what to do. So Cremeegg, best of luck, dying to see if you actually will buy shares.
 
Bronte

Why are you going to a bank for financial advice? They are the most product driven of anyone in the industry? They cannot charge a fee for advice so they will never tell you to leave it where it is.

Also, why would you invest in a cash fund through an investment product where there is an annual management fee charged on it? Leave that portion of your money on deposit where you will be able to get a better rate, can access it if needs be and there is no management fee.

No tax on gain? Minimum 5% loss? Annual cost given as a monetary figure and not as a %? Sounds a bit suspect to me.


Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie
 
The product I'm now considering is a portfolio, it's got 4 asset types, bonds, equity, other asset types and cash. Then there are 5 types of bond, government, 32 % corporate, index, other, emerging markets .01%. There's currency allocation, 10, from Euro 62% to CHF .85% (Swiss I guess), Theren there are about 10 sectors, and finally Geographic allocation. So naturally enough I'm totally lost. Will be interesting to see what Cremeegg is offered.

The above product has a risk of losing 5% of the capital. Their is no tax on any gain, unlike deposits here. Since it's launch it's made 3.21%. There is an entry cost of 3.5% - negotiatable. Annual costs of around €125 Euro, and can withdraw at any time. And I cannot make a decision on what to do.

This seems very complicated to me. I would think that every one of these elements comes with a cost. The bank probably isn't managing any of these investments directly, but some one is and they are getting a fee. And the bank is getting a fee.

As regards the 5% maximum loss. Well I once invested in something like this seemed nice and safe, I actually had a full capital guarantee after 6 years.

Are you familiar with the term "cash-locked" in connection with investments. Well it cost me tens of thousands to find out what it means. I am happy to offer you the benefit of that lesson.

Do not buy a guaranteed product until you know what "cash-locked" means.
 
Why are you going to a bank for financial advice? They are the most product driven of anyone in the industry? They cannot charge a fee for advice so they will never tell you to leave it where it is.

Sounds a bit suspect to me.

I only went to the bank as they suggested it, I was only looking for ideas. I'm in a similar situation to Creemegg so I related my story to show that for some people, 'investing' in 'products' is very complicated. Like him all I know is property. (BTW, the loss was not a minimium, but a maximium risk)

The bank offered me deposit products also, it's different to Ireland, very regulated here. Very cautious people.

Creemegg, no clue do I have on 'cash-locked'. But so far I see you're no nearer to finding out what to do with your cash ! When you find the holy grail, I'll be all ears. And you've now practially convinced me I'll leave my cash where it is and buy another property if the government makes it feasable. The CGT exemption is a big incentive, but the continuing to be a landlord less so. It's enough managing the small amount I do.
 
Bronte,

The product I bought was meant to replicate the FTSE100 approx, with a capital guarantee. When I bought the FTSE 100 had a value of 6,200.

When I bought the product part of the investment was used to provide the guarantee, the rest invested, as described in the literature.

When the investments went down, more money was put aside to cover the guarantee, until eventually all the money was like this.

When the FTSE100 recovered, my investment did not. It was cash locked.

A fool and his money.
 
The above product has a risk of losing 5% of the capital. Their is no tax on any gain, unlike deposits here. Since it's launch it's made 3.21%. There is an entry cost of 3.5% - negotiatable. Annual costs of around €125 Euro, and can withdraw at any time.

You were going well up until this sentence! Having a capital guarantee and being able to withdraw at any time does not stack up. How are they making their money? I would be very careful about such products.
 
Bronte

What country are you living in? I had thought it was Ireland but I am obviously wrong. I would look to speak to an advisor who will not promise you the moon and the stars, you feel is working in your best interests and takes the time to understand what you are looking for. Maybe cash is the best option?

Cremeegg, you probably bought into a product that said it couldn't fall below X amount of its starting price or a price at a certain date. Those have become cash locked quite a lot. The need to protect the guarantee is greater than the need to make a return, so they won't leave the cash fund in pursuit of growth.

Most other guaranteed products are nothing more than a deposit account and an option at the end of the term...less product fees which are deducted up front.

They do absolutely massive business in Ireland and I can't for the life of me understand why people go into them. They are incredibly complex with a lot of small print that really needs to be read. People need to understand that if they want equity type returns, they have to take equity type risk. There is something wrong is someone tells you that for deposit type risk you can get equity type returns.

Steven
www.bluewaterfp.ie
 
You know, I'm also lost on what to do.

I'm newly married and we have a strong income stream at around 85k net per year.

We're both in our early 30s, no kids, no debts, no assets.

We really want to build some wealth for ourselves and work towards financial independence.

Based on online research, we decided to take these initial steps:

  • Protected what we have via life insurance and contents protection insurance for our rented apartment.
  • Built up cash savings of 6 months required living expenses as a rainy day fund.

For the rest of 2014 and all of 2015 we would be easily able to put away around 80k somewhere, but the where is the question. Do we invest it in stocks/a portfolio, or do we keep it for a property downpayment (even though we don't know where we want to live permanently or even if we want to buy - we like being expats). Another option is to keep it on deposit, but interest rates are so low.

I've been reading lots of financial pages on About.com and it really highlights the power of compound interest and using it to build wealth and financial independence.

It also lauds investment in businesses. Specifically, it says that most of the money is in pizza, waste disposal, shipping, clothing - things like that. I like the thinking there, as at least all these things are stable. People ate pizza 50 years ago, they eat it today, and they'll still be eating it in 50 years.

I've a meeting with an Irish financial advisor later this week (he is also an expat in the country we live in) and I'll ask him lots of questions. We went to him; he didn't cold-call us. But at the end of the day, I'm worried - like Bronte - that all he'll have to offer are complex, sterile products that I won't understand.

I have no idea what to do with my money and it sucks.
 
For someone in your position I would make the following suggestions

1. The rainy day fund

2. A pension. Putting 5% to 10% of your income. Invest it cautiously but get started, don't wait until you identify the perfect pension. Don't over contribute to the pension, because the money can only be used within the constraints of pension rules. The govt gives you tax relief but they restrict what you can do with the money. Although these has been made much less restrictive in the UK recently.

3.Use smallish money to actively invest in shares. Say 10 shares at €2k a time. Read the financial press and back your judgement. You might loose heavily or you might do well. The purpose of this activity is to determine if investing with significant money suits you. That is a question of temperament.

4. Buy a property. It makes no difference weather you will ever live in it. These are uncertain times, a 2 bed apartment in London today will be a 2 bed apartment in London in 20 years time. You don't get that type of certainty with any other investment. Borrow as much as you can comfortably service.

This is basically my own financial history from 30 to 35, except I bought the property in Ireland.
 
I've a meeting with an Irish financial advisor later this week (he is also an expat in the country we live in) and I'll ask him lots of questions. We went to him; he didn't cold-call us. But at the end of the day, I'm worried - like that all he'll have to offer are complex, sterile products that I won't understand.

I have no idea what to do with my money and it sucks.

I've been around the block a few times. On that particular bit here's my advice.

1. Don't believe that you called him and not the other way around. I'd bet anything you 'heard' about him from other 'friends'

2. 'Friends' are sometimes paid for referring.

3. The expert will have subliminally got to you. In the pub talk, the expat web advertising, the expat helpful advice on living, in the local English media article, followed by big advertisment somewhere.

4. IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TO DO WITH YOUR MONEY DON'T BELIEVE THE EXPERTS.

5. ONLY INVEST IN WHAT YOU KNOW.
 
For someone in your position I would make the following suggestions


3.Use smallish money to actively invest in shares. That is a question of temperament.

4. Buy a property. Borrow as much as you can comfortably service.

This is basically my own financial history from 30 to 35, except I bought the property in Ireland.

As expected I'd agree with all you've posted Cremeegg. Even though I've never done shares I think the smallish amounts over time could work out well. And he's young and can go with the ebb and flow of it, and the temperament is a good indicator too. I'd say that also applies to property investment.

Apart from Ireland i've invested in property here, bought twice and sold once, so far it's worked out. But I think it's much harder to manage property that is abroad. And stay away from places one doesn't know about. Bulgaria, Spain and Dubai. Proven markets like London will always be ok.
 
For someone in your position I would make the following suggestions

1. The rainy day fund

Done :)

2. A pension. Putting 5% to 10% of your income. Invest it cautiously but get started, don't wait until you identify the perfect pension. Don't over contribute to the pension, because the money can only be used within the constraints of pension rules. The govt gives you tax relief but they restrict what you can do with the money. Although these has been made much less restrictive in the UK recently.

See, this makes perfect sense to me, but it's also where my bewilderment begins. How do we invest in a pension? Who do we speak to - an advisor, a company, a bank - and how does it work? How do we identify what to invest in? Is it basically one type of several pension products that we'd choose? If so, how do we identify the best product, and how do we set up the payments? It's not like walking into a shop; and that's what we mean when we say We don't know what to do with our money. I mean, we know that we should have a property and a pension and a rainy day fund, but we literally have no clue how to start a pension. We don't understand the system.

3.Use smallish money to actively invest in shares. Say 10 shares at €2k a time. Read the financial press and back your judgement. You might loose heavily or you might do well. The purpose of this activity is to determine if investing with significant money suits you. That is a question of temperament.

Thanks -this has the makings of a strategy :)
But again, we don't know where to go to buy shares. I am used to seeing the prices of individual shares at, say, 60 euro for SAP or 30 cent for AIB. Are you saying that we should target businesses that have an individual share price of around 200 euro? So, for example, based on the industries I mentioned above (fast food, gambling, shipping, waste disposal), we'd invest as follows (for example):

  • EUR 200 in Dominos
  • EUR 200 in McDonalds

  • EUR 200 in Paddy Powers
  • EUR 200 in Ladbrokes

  • EUR 200 in Garbage Company X
  • EUR 200 in Recycling Company Y

  • EUR 200 in Maersk
  • EUR 200 in DHL

  • EUR 200 in Primark
  • EUR 200 in cheap clothing company abc

^^ Is that basically what you have in mind?

4. Buy a property. It makes no difference weather you will ever live in it. These are uncertain times, a 2 bed apartment in London today will be a 2 bed apartment in London in 20 years time. You don't get that type of certainty with any other investment. Borrow as much as you can comfortably service.

This I understand. But I was thinking that if we do that, we won't have any money left over to eventually buy our own residence without a huge mortgage (or is there something I'm missing?). We actually have no plans right now to buy a residence as we don't yet know where we'll eventually settle (or when).

Also, while our income stream is very strong right now, it won't be when we eventually go back to the west. Rather than netting 90k per year, we might only net 55k. We have another 2 or three years high income guaranteed, and potentially a lot longer, but I don't want to be in a situation where we've relocated to the west, only net 55k, and have stretched ourselves too thin based on when times were good and we were netting 90k. We'll do our level best to stay where we are for as long as possible (e.g. until they kick us out or it becomes uneconomical).

BTW - we are planning on starting a family in 2016. By family, I mean one child. I know that kids are a big expense, but we're absolutely set on just having one.

This is basically my own financial history from 30 to 35, except I bought the property in Ireland.

Really appreciate it :)

I've been around the block a few times. On that particular bit here's my advice.

1. Don't believe that you called him and not the other way around. I'd bet anything you 'heard' about him from other 'friends'
He works for a company that was highly lauded on a busy expat forum. The forum has a culture of hatred for financial advisors, but this one company was the only one people had any time for. My wife and I went to see one of their people last year (a lady who was mentioned positively on the forum), but my wife didn't like her. The company proposed this other guy instead and he helped us to secure a decent life insurance policy and told us then to come back to him in 6 months once we'd amassed a rainy day fund. We've amassed one, so it's time for us to meet again.

He has recommended keeping our rainy day fund in an offshore account and I think it's the right choice. However, he would charge 200 dollars for setting it up ("paperwork" like signatures etc) and he says he'll return this if we give him business in terms of investments. I'm not sure what to make of that. I'm a natural born skeptic and will challenge him to explain and justify everything he says, but given my ignorance of finance I feel I have little option but to use an advisor.

2. 'Friends' are sometimes paid for referring.
Good point. Noted.

3. The expert will have subliminally got to you. In the pub talk, the expat web advertising, the expat helpful advice on living, in the local English media article, followed by big advertisment somewhere.
You're right - the company are frequently on expat radio and they have a columnist in the local expat paper.


As expected I'd agree with all you've posted Cremeegg. Even though I've never done shares I think the smallish amounts over time could work out well. And he's young and can go with the ebb and flow of it, and the temperament is a good indicator too. I'd say that also applies to property investment.

Apart from Ireland i've invested in property here, bought twice and sold once, so far it's worked out. But I think it's much harder to manage property that is abroad. And stay away from places one doesn't know about. Bulgaria, Spain and Dubai. Proven markets like London will always be ok.
Thanks. I live in Dubai and I wouldn't buy anything here. Ever.
 
3.Use smallish money to actively invest in shares. Say 10 shares at €2k a time. Read the financial press and back your judgement. You might loose heavily or you might do well. The purpose of this activity is to determine if investing with significant money suits you. That is a question of temperament.

Equity invest is not some kind of game you try out to see if you are good at it or not! Unless you are willing to put in a lot of time into learning and research - it is not for you, it really is that simple. People who loose heavily on equities do so, because they start out with exactly the approach you are suggesting.

On the other hand you absolutely need a hight level of equities in your portfolio if you are to generate wealth. The being the case, for the large majority of people, the best solution is a couple of ETFs.

4. Buy a property. It makes no difference weather you will ever live in it. These are uncertain times, a 2 bed apartment in London today will be a 2 bed apartment in London in 20 years time. You don't get that type of certainty with any other investment. Borrow as much as you can comfortably service.

Place more that about 6% or 7% of your portfolio in property results in a high risk portfolio. And evidence from the US, the UK and Ireland clearly demonstrate that it is in fact more likely to diminish you wealth than any thing else! And yet people in these three countries persist in pumping cash into property... When you invest in a single property, you break every rule of prudent investing - you concentrate your wealth in one position in one asset class, you completely over weight you portfolio in a high risk asset class, you borrow to do it and then end up with a lower rate of return than most other asset classes!

Treating equites like a horse race, while pouring your cash into property is not likely to be a winning strategy unless you are awful lucky.
 
But again, we don't know where to go to buy shares. I am used to seeing the prices of individual shares at, say, 60 euro for SAP or 30 cent for AIB. Are you saying that we should target businesses that have an individual share price of around 200 euro? So, for example, based on the industries I mentioned above (fast food, gambling, shipping, waste disposal), we'd invest as follows (for example):
EUR 200 in Dominos
EUR 200 in McDonalds
EUR 200 in Paddy Powers
EUR 200 in Ladbrokes
EUR 200 in Garbage Company X
EUR 200 in Recycling Company Y
EUR 200 in Maersk
EUR 200 in DHL
EUR 200 in Primark
EUR 200 in cheap clothing company abc

^^ Is that basically what you have in mind?

I would strongly recommend that you drop this idea for now.

If you really want to invest in individual equities rather than an ETF, then take the time to learn how to do it properly so you have a reasonable chance of being successful at it. To that end I would suggest you take out a subscription to Better Investing, it is US oriented of course, but the techniques they teach are just as applicable in Europe as they are anywhere else - the ability to identify good companies and determine the price at which it is worth taking a position.

In my book there are only two reasons to get involved in investing in individual equities:
- Your are interested in the companies.
- You want to and are able to beat the market.

In all other cases you are better to buy the index, because in doing so you will in fact be beating most professional fund managers over the long run.
 
I have spoken recently with some fund managers who also manage their own individual portfolios. Both have considerable experience in the field of investment management and funnily enough, both have stated that despite this experience when transaction costs are taken into account they have not outperformed the better funds over the medium term. They regard own portfolio management as a kind of hobby, but would not recommend it as a means of outperforming the market, for investment rather than speculation purposes.
 
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