Berties remarks regarding suicide

gonk said:
I disagree. If you and I were having a discussion here and I made one of two alternative comments:

"Caveat, why don't you commit suicide?"

or

"Caveat, I don't know why you don't commit suicide."

what's the difference?
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There is little difference in your example. But I think a more accurate comparison, in line with the original comments would be:

"I don't know how Caveat doesn't commit suicide"

vs

"Gonk suggested that Caveat commits suicide"

I think there is a difference and I think it matters.

But I should also say that I think Bertie's remarks were certainly insensitive and his response inappropriate.

I'm no supporter of Bertie by the way: personally I think he is a complacent chancer. But I reserve equal disdain for those who use semantic manipulation as a means of grandstanding and cheap political pointscoring, as Room305 suggested above.
 
Storm in a teacup tbh. No fan of his but it seemed to me to be a throwaway remark using a figure of speech which those, sensitised to the issue, took the wrong away.

I agree that his apology only seemed to make matters worse.
 
According to the BBC News, Ahern, in his apology, described his comment as "a bad choice of words". In that case I think he should apologise every time he opens his mouth. First, though, he'd have to remove his foot!!
 
gonk said:
Yes. There are vastly more deaths from suicide than murder.
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That may be so, but the point of the news is to report the events of the day.

I think a man getting shot in the head is more newswothy on the day than Bertie's comments.
 
Jim McDaid made a similar statement a few years ago about suicide and got into trouble. Im surprised Bertie didnt learn from his 'mistake' , or maybe he didnt care ?
 
I came across this passage that might explain Bertie's meaning.
It was written by St.Augustine over 1,600 years ago and sure isn't Bertie like a saint to to some sectors of our economy ?

These shocking words are not what they initially seem:

Oh, if Thou wouldest slay them with Thy two-edged sword,
that they be not its enemies!

For thus do I love, that they should be slain unto themselves
that they may live unto Thee.

Augustine: Confessions. (AD 398) Book XII. Chapter XIV, 17.
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Augustine isn't wishing them physically dead - he's talking about a metaphorical death - the enemies old life should pass away so they can live anew.

And so Bertie was speaking metaphorically you see. He can't understand for the love of them why the 'doomsters' don't die - 'unto themselves' - so that they can live a new life of pure optimism in our government and economy.

 
Would i be right in saying that: although he didn't think before he spoke, if you are offended by his remarks, you need to grow up. I'm sure there's more important things happening in one's life than to be arguing over politicians' petty comments.?

I don't mean to offend ppl who are related to victims. Although i would personally rather my loved one was a victim of suicide rather than murder.
 
ClubMan said:
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As an absolute last resort!! You know if it had to happen. If Bertie made stupid comments about murder, i would understand ppl's anger at him alot more.

But suicide is the person's own decision, isn't it? And personally it seems a bit of a cowardly way out, but i wouldn't really know.

What i'm trying to say is: In sucide the victim has a say, (like rights). In murder the victim has no say. So ppl shouldn't be so offended about wat bertie said. Although i stress: He was a bit of an imbecile to say that!
 
Sn@kebite said:
But suicide is the person's own decision, isn't it? And personally it seems a bit of a cowardly way out, but i wouldn't really know.
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If Bertie had said something like this then we might have something to complain about!

You obviously haven't got a clue about suicide and its causes so you should probably stop now.
 
ClubMan said:
If Bertie had said something like this then we might have something to complain about!

You obviously haven't got a clue about suicide and its causes so you should probably stop now.
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OK i will, but only because, you suggested it
 
Sn@kebite said:
Not you as well does my last post not explain any more?
How exactly am i digging?
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Suicide is a complex and tragic phenomenon. A mixture of psychological and environmental issues usually, but not always, causes it; in other words clinical depression/ by-polar disorder/ other and stress/ bereavement/ addiction/ other factor. The clinical depression can be a cause or a symptom of the external factor.
What can be said is that it is not the action of a rational mind and comments that suggest that it is show an utter lack of insight.
I am lucky and have not been touched by suicide but am aware of its causes.
 

OK, thanks for the insight. Some ppl reply with condescendence, while other's (like you) have the generosity to enlighten me to my ignorance and at least now i will not ever make the mistake bertie/I made. Althought, my ignorance/assumptions were based upon opinion, and not designed to be offensive.
And in Bertie's case he's in the public eye, i'm not, and he's at least 2x my age.
 
Purple, as ever, talking sense. The media reaction to Ahern's comments - typical nonsense.
 
michaelm said:
The media reaction to Ahern's comments - typical nonsense.
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The media merely reported the justifiably strong negative reaction from groups like Aware and The Action on Suicide Alliance.
 
The media merely reported the justifiably strong negative reaction from groups like Aware and The Action on Suicide Alliance.
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Good post Gonk.

Marion
 
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