Benchmarking

Re: Benchmarking.

Bridget

What I object to is the civil service somehow thinking that even with all these extra benefits, they are still being hard done by. It is my experience that many civil servants just have no idea what the private sector is like in practice. As for the notion that all these perks constitute treating staff well and therefore lead to productivity benefits ... I have my doubts, to say the least. I would love to see proof that the public sector is more productive than the priate sector as a result of all of this.

Rebecca

Re: Benchmarking.

RE: Miss Ribena

YOU GO GIRL!!!

We'd all love to see proof that the public sector is more productive than the priate sector as a result of all their perks.

Public Sector effectiveness

Hi lads,

As proof of the public sector effectiveness (well civil service at least), perhaps the very recently finished EU Presidency???

No flowers or autographs please :rolleyes

Regards,


OpusnBill

..the pirate sector??

..the pirate sector??

Re..

Redbhoy;

The jobs could also be given on merit rather than the jobs for the boys approach!!

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That's a bit unfair isn't it? They do exams to get in and it is pretty transparent.

OpusnBill;

(Purple - I'll get back to you separately)

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Jasus, I don't like the sound of that!
Bridget;

I'd say that the benefits of public sector work are only what all workers should get!

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Do you think that what you get paid should bear any relationship to what you actually earn?

Treat your workers well and they will repay you......

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There's no evidence of that so far in the public sector....

daltonr;

It was ESRI, and it said they were 13% better off BEFORE the last round of Benchmarking, not that they're 13% better off now.

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Holy s**t! I just dug the IT out of the bin to have a look, we're being robbed!

MissRibena;

All days off, Christmas or otherwise come out of our allocation of 20 days

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You are entitled to 20 days plus public holidays (8 I think).

Re.EU

As proof of the public sector effectiveness (well civil service at least), perhaps the very recently finished EU Presidency???

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at a cost of 60 odd million. Was none of that over time. (I know that's a bit bitter, they actually did a great job, but I can't show any weakness!)

public v private

There is a vacancy advertised on the Dublin City Council website at the moment.

Senior engineer for the bus corridor network.

€69k basic plus €10k 'allowance' (tax free)

Therefore equivalent to almost €90k pa

Plus 31+1 days leave pa, with flexitime, benchmarking, etc etc

I am a senior engineering manager in the private sector. I work in excess of 70 hours per week; not out of the love of it, but that's what the job entails. Same for my colleagues and friends in similar roles.

I am personally responsible for an annual budget of £12m, a team of 20, and works costing almost €200k per day.

I get 19 days leave per year (that I hardly manage to take). At most, I get 30mins for a sandwich at the desk during the day.

Last year my P60 read just under €55k.

My point is, just what are the public salary scales set against? I fail to see how benchmarking is supposed to reflect the private sector.

PF

Re: public v private

Sorry purple .. by Christmas I meant the Christmas break. Everyone gets the public holidays of Christmas Day and St. Stephen's Day but I was referring to the extra day(s) given to public sector workers over the course of the holiday period. Maybe Opus could clarify but I understand that there are a number of extra days off given to public sector workers over and above public holidays and their contract days off. These are annual but there are others once-off's as well, like the extra wedding holiday I mentioned before.

And yes, priate = private. Oops

Pontifex,
Just curious as to why you don't go for that job? I've often done the math myself and been tempted but I'm too politically minded and wouldn't/couldn't maintain the impartiality necessary on certain things. I suppose I value my autonomy in my own job as well. Mind you, it's a high price to pay when I add it all up.

Rebecca

Annual Leave by Job Grade

OpusnBill,
I've experienced both the private and public sectors - 25yrs in the former and 6yrs in the latter, therefore I'm in a position to compare the conditions/entitlements afforded to employees.
My former employer - U.S. multinational - grant annual leave based on the length of service regardless of job position - whether it be mailroom attendant or Chief Executive - up to the maximum of 30 days.
Yet in the Civil Service, COs - despite 30+ years' service - would be granted 21 days' annual leave (rather a measly one extra day after 5 years' service on top of 20 days), while the AP/POs enjoy the privilege of 29/31 days' AL.
OpusnBill, where does that inanomaly originate and why?? Is it some kind of hangover from the former British Civil Service prior to 1922?
Razzie

Civil Service leave and other stuff

Hi folks,

Just to clarify a few points

Rebecca,

Yep, that's true, Civil Servants gets two privilege days during the year one at Xmas and at Easter. The origin of these were to facilitate people who were going down the country. I understand that some private sector company's have "company days" , which would be the closest equivalent.

Yet in the Civil Service, COs - despite 30+ years' service - would be granted 21 days' annual leave (rather a measly one extra day after 5 years' service on top of 20 days), while the AP/POs enjoy the privilege of 29/31 days' AL.

Razzie,

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OpusnBill, where does that inanomaly originate and why?? Is it some kind of hangover from the former British Civil Service prior to 1922?
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Yep, apparently so. Naturally enough we are quite closely linked to the British Civil Service for failrly obvious reasons...!

To purple,

I thought about a suitable reply and the best I can give you is that there is some logic to the second attempt at benchmarking......the Government could say right lads you're 13% over the private sector, it's pay pause time until they catch up!! And they could you know!!

As a state employee (and economically rational most of the time!!) I have to say this thought caused me some bad moments yesterday evening!!

While I might have to reluctantly accept this for senior and middle management say from HEO up, (and I'm in that category) I think it would be very bad news for the grades from EO down.

One other point purple, yep accept that the number of cases where Secretary Generals fire staff is relatively rare, but it is there and will probably be used with greater frequency in the future - After all, I see case whereby people who are paid quite a lot of money do sod all and I have to say I blame management more than the derpartment - very poor for morale and all that.

Cheers,

OpusnBill

To

the great cop-out

What has put me off the public service as a permanent career has been the trepidation that once in, you’ll never get out.

Employers – in my profession anyway – have an inbuilt suspicion of the motivations of former public employees. It is unfortunately still seen as a copout from the cut and thrust of real industry.

However, if the copout now pays well in excess of private industry, I may well reconsider the options!

Incidentally, I spent a few years at the earliest stages of my career working for local authorities. Even then, with the cushy number, I knew I should be doing more and was potentially hampering my future prospects by ‘retiring early’.

I still recall the kingdom-building, suspicious of change, and stagnant mindsets of a number of colleagues. Never encountered anything quite as bad in industry.

Thankfully.

PF

Re: EU Presidency

Hi Purple,

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at a cost of 60 odd million. Was none of that over time. (I know that's a bit bitter, they actually did a great job, but I can't show any weakness!)
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I understand :lol

The majority of the O/T would have presumbably been the Gardai (and I'm not sure that's all been accounted for [ie yet to be claimed :eek ]) yet)- a fair amount was also done in relation to tarting up buildings etc

Anyway APs and over don't get overtime so there!!

Regards,

OpusnBill

Re: EU Presidency

What is the rationale for this second round of benchmarking ?

It's too easy to engage in civil servant bashing, but I don't honestly think that this latest round is deserved.

Am open to correction . . . .

on your own

OpusnBill; You are plowing a lonely furrow (as the granny used to say) on this thread with attackers (too strong a word?) all around, and yet you are holding your own.
Well done!
A civil servant who doesn't feel he has to defend everything in the civil service. If we ever meet I'll buy you a pint.

Hi lads,

NoelC :-

I have to say, I agree with you - I welcomed benchmarking on the premise that there was a difference between public and private sector pay, but that it a once-off and not like Sen. joe O'Toole, another trip to the public ATM!!

Unless, as I said, it's used to bring in a pay pause for the public sector if you believe the 13% differential between public and private sector jobs - I'm skeptical on the methodology though..

Purple,

I'm well used to paddling my own canoe ;-)

Thanks for the offer of a pint though - mine's a pint of brandy..! (these expensive public sector tastes of mine!!!)... Perhaps the next Xmas party bash of AAM??

There are good and bad element to the public service as a whole, just like the private sector!!!

Seriously though, I'm genuinely appalled at some of the conditions that the private sector have to deal with less than 20 days off holidays per annum (illegal) 70 hours a week (very illegal - working time act) etc etc.

We're only on the world for a once around spin, I'm not going to waste it being married to a job. I do what I do and I like to think I do it very well, but I'd be saddened that it consumed or even interfered with my life outside work. So I'm happy to see the public sector take a lead in this work/life balance.

I have plenty of other things to pique my interest! but enough about me - too much detail there perhaps :rolleyes

Interestingly enough, civil servants have a very poor life expectancy after retirement (2 years or so).

Apparently a lot of them are into their job too much...!!!

Of course, this is alleviated by having outside interests etc.

Regards,

OpusnBill

ESRI v IBEC

Hi lads,

Sorry I didn't come back to you before. Apologies, yes it was the ESRI who did the research, but wasn't it comissioned by IBEC? He who pays the piper call the tune...I'll have to get the methodology and come back to you on this. I'd also like to see the report too..

OhPichy,

I don't take my comments back about IBEC, for an example of their unbiased reporting you should read the insider-outsider economy (that IBEC commissioned) by that well known economist George Lee - who imagined that the average Civil Service salary was £28,000 in 1994!!! Funny, I don't remember those of pay checks back then but there you go...... :rolleyes

I did actually try to pull him up on this, and to say he looked uncomfortable is putting it mildly to say the least.

So in response to your question, no I don't trust IBEC.

And for your information, I'm not a fan of "anecdotal evidence" - its right up there with "everyone knows". If it is wrong/misleading then it's WORSE then having no information at all. Certainly do the research and let the facts fall where they may...
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In my case I happen to know someone who assures me he can get away with 10-4 on a more than occasional basis...and yes the chances of getting away with taking a 1.5 hour lunch are higher in public than private sector. ________________________________________________

I refer you to an earlier mail which gave the time bands for Civil Service attendance. Sure they can do this on one or two days a month, but they have to balance this with being in at 8m and working to 7pm with a half hour lunch to ensure they work the minimum number of hours per week. If they are not doing this they are de-frauding the system and should be taken off the clock fortwith. In addition, pay can (and has) been deducted and in some cases can (and has) be fired.

It's not a free ride you know - you appear to be implying that it is..

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I have a mate whos job involves him doing consulting in revenue and he cant get over the work atmosphere...by his reckoning if an issue is raised after 2.30pm then itll definitely have to wait till tomorrow!
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News to me, but I'll accept your friend's description, I could give you numberoue examples of just the opposite from my own direct experience and give you witnesses too. i have to say tohugh that my dealings with Revenue would suggest that they are an efficient Department.

If that's true re the 2:30 "rule", I would have an issue with management of that particular section rather than the Office as a whole.

Regards,

OpusnBill

Here Here OpunsBill

...

OpusNBill:

I should point out that when I talk of anecdotal evidence I really mean "hear say"...as in its something I am hearing from a trusted source, but is admittedly an isolated event. I firmly believe in the accuracy of my sources on these stories.

However, as you correctly allude to towards the end of your post, it is wrong to assume that a story heard through hearsay is applicable across the board. (i.e. that if the 2.30 thing is happening, then it is down to poor management in that office rather than an across the board policy decision). So getting back to your questioning of ESRI's findings based on pure speculation, I re-iterate my point that basing your opinion on hearsay is not ideal, but is clearer better than basing it on pure speculation.

You make a good case in defence of the public sector, I'll give you that, but I feel you are basing your arguments entirely on whats in the rulebook and I think the reality might well be quite difference.

In the case of the poor management issue above, I wonder how widespread this is. Do you really believe that everytime someone ducks out early that they work back the hours? I'm not asking should they work it back, but do they..e.g. if they duck out early without manager noticing, will they work back that time? And no, this definitely does not happen to a high degree in the private sector, not in any place I've worked anyway.

Your solid defence of the public sector shows to me that yes, the public sector work harder than they are given credit for, but I still feel the private sector works AT LEAST as hard, and gets paid less.

So getting back to a question I asked above, the thrust of which was not to identify whether the public sector currently deserves what they get....but rather why should there be a second round or benchmarking to give them even more. I asked to hear from a public sector worker who believes they are currently getting a raw deal, and that further increases are justified.

OpusNBill, for all his staunch defence of the current situation, appears to be rational in that he is does not appear to be one of those who feels hard done by (in working conditions and renumeration terms anyway, I'm sure he feels hard done by by the poor press they're getting)....so, for the second time, are there any public sector workers out there who do feel hard done by and can justify Benchmarking Mark II?

Re:...

Hi OhPinchy,

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So getting back to your questioning of ESRI's findings based on pure speculation, I re-iterate my point that basing your opinion on hearsay is not ideal, but is clearer better than basing it on pure speculation.
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Hmmm.....hearsay can be malicious (if I'm being paranoid) or incorrect (which I've tried to correct on this board where I can). In either case it takes from the argument, and I'm genuinely interested in the argument! I will try to get a copy of the ESRI's research and come back to you.


________________________________________________You make a good case in defence of the public sector, I'll give you that, but I feel you are basing your arguments entirely on whats in the rulebook and I think the reality might well be quite difference.
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Cheers!! I accept it might sound like that, but actually it is real case studies I refer to, so the civil service at least seems to be a bit more practical. If anything, they appear to be cracking down a bit more, which I have no problem with!

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In the case of the poor management issue above, I wonder how widespread this is. Do you really believe that everytime someone ducks out early that they work back the hours? I'm not asking should they work it back, but do they..e.g. if they duck out early without manager noticing, will they work back that time?
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Its not a case of ducking out - if you're on flexi time, you have to key in and out and believe me there is a record of it which is checked by HR. If you clock out early, you have to make up the time, if you cheat you will be found out eventually (change of supervisor etc).
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And no, this definitely does not happen to a high degree in the private sector, not in any place I've worked anyway.
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I'd accept that - I'm just saying it's not that high in the public sector either.

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Your solid defence of the public sector shows to me that yes, the public sector work harder than they are given credit for, but I still feel the private sector works AT LEAST as hard, and gets paid less.
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Fair enough, but I would ask you to compare like with like - you can look at the Department of Finance website and look under the latest circular for pay for the different grades. I'm not sure we're as overpiad as you think. Also remember we have a pyramid structure. Sure Secretary Generals get paid well, (as to all the way down to Assistant Principals) but they are in line with the private sector as they are very senior management.

As for lower grades, I'd have to take issue with you on that one -there's a lot more Indians than Chiefs ( I know a similar position exists in the private sector, but it's somewhat easier to climb the ladder).

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So getting back to a question I asked above, the thrust of which was not to identify whether the public sector currently deserves what they get....but rather why should there be a second round or benchmarking to give them even more. I asked to hear from a public sector worker who believes they are currently getting a raw deal, and that further increases are justified.
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I leave this to my colleagues, as you know my views on this already.

Cheers,

OpusnBill

...

OpusnBill:

I try to make of point of not entering into a debate unless I am prepared to have my opinion influenced, should new information come to light etc...because if not, then whats the point as its just a bunch of people trying stubbornly to prove they are right!

To this end I take your quote:

"Its not a case of ducking out - if you're on flexi time, you have to key in and out and believe me there is a record of it which is checked by HR. If you clock out early, you have to make up the time, if you cheat you will be found out eventually (change of supervisor etc).
".

I wasn't aware that this was the case, and it seems like a very reasonable system, so I withdraw my earlier comment.