Benchmarking

Please Gebus tell me we are not going for another round of benchmarking?

I thought that Royston had gone to ground!?

[broken link removed]

Re: Benchmarking.

Hi shnaek,

Probably not. Otherwise, I might need to rethink on whether I should buy another ivory backscratcher!!

Cheers,

OpusnBill.

Re.Benchmarking

Of course they are! Are you saying that people with protected jobs for life with subsidised pensions shouldn't be paid more than people in equivalent jobs in the private sector?
At the moment the public sector only get 13% more (according to ibec), you can't say that's enough!
Next you will be saying we should reward risk and entrepreneurship!
This is what social partnership is all about; give the unions so much up front that they will have nothing to go on strike about, it's brilliant! (except those poor hard working souls in the ESB who are looking for a megre 18%. In this era of low inflation who could begrudge them that?

Re: Re.Benchmarking

except those poor hard working souls in the ESB who are looking for a megre 18%. In this era of low inflation who could begrudge them that?

Absolutely...afterall these poor b*ggers are only earning an average wage of 67k per year!


How do they survive? :\

Re.Piggy

Absolutely...after all these poor b*ggers are only earning an average wage of 67k per year!

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...and some of them are so tired at the end of their long 39 hour week that they can only do 2 or 3 nixer's a week!
P.S. I thought you were a pinko, where's all this vitriol for the poor oppressed "worker" coming from?

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Nail on the head alright....public sector workers get paid more than private sectore, often do less work (e.g. civil service and their cushy 10 - 4 numbers), have total job security and flexibility (e.g. civil servants can go travel the world for a year and have their job there for them when they get back)...yet the government is talking about giving them even MORE money...can't believe this myself. Only downside I can think of is that the work in private sector may be more challenging and have more oppurtunities to progress through your career path quicker.

I'd love to hear the point of view of a public worker who can put together an argument as to why they deserve further increases so that their salaries can further outgrow the average private sectore worker.

Re: ...

e.g. civil servants can go travel the world for a year and have their job there for them when they get back

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So can some in the private sector. A friend in ICS Building Society (part of BOI) has just done this and returned to a fulltime position in ICS.

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That's good to hear for your friend. The difference is that your friend would regard this as a privilege rather than a right I would imagine.

I don't in anyway wish to beat up on private sector employees, I just want them to acknowledge that they don't get a bad deal, and if theres any that feel this is untrue, I'm eager to hear why.

Re: Benchmarking.

Hi purple,
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Of course they are! Are you saying that people with protected jobs for life
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Er, that's not correct - the Public Service Managment Act of 1997 allows for any public servant to be dismissed by the Secretary General of a Department - it used to have to go to the Oireachtas before that.
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with subsidised pensions shouldn't be paid more than people in equivalent jobs in the private sector?
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Well, since you're asking...ok so ;-) Seriously though as the civil service pension is good, I accept that we have to lose out a bit in terms of current salary. Kinda like deferred BIK if you know what I mean. Still there are benefits in the private sector that will never come in on the public side like company cars etc...

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At the moment the public sector only get 13% more (according to ibec), you can't say that's enough!
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Ah yes, IBEC that well know source of truth and fair play. Forgive me for saying this purple, but isn't there the slighest chance they might be er, manipulating the figures somewhat??

This can be done by means of including figures on O/T, shift allowances (eg gardai and prison officers) etc etc.
Another possible reason is that IBEC are probably not comparing like with like eg take someone on the mid point of the scale of their salary in the private sector viz-a-viz someone who is on the top of their scale in the public sector and that should be good for an extra couple of %. To be really accurate, they should look at someone in the grade after 5 years, 10 years etc to get a true comparison.

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Next you will be saying we should reward risk and
entrepreneurship!
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Well er, I would actually, once I'm satisifed the market is properly regulated and everyone has a fair chance to compete....!

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This is what social partnership is all about; give the unions so much up front that they will have nothing to go on strike about, it's brilliant!
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A tad simplistic I think. Look at it for a second, if IBEC were THAT unhappy, they wouldn't sign up would they? I mean come on the are not completly powerless in this situation. And social partnership is not all about pay either - some of the payments are linked to structual change in the organisation or changing work practices, which I consider to be fair enough as the economy is always moving on.

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(except those poor hard working souls in the ESB who are looking for a megre 18%. In this era of low inflation who could begrudge them that
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It sounds excessive, no question. However, could we see the terms of the full deal. The devil as always is in the detail.

As for benchamrking mark.2 I don't think it'll happen, well not like last time anyway (our grade got a 10% rise overall).

Regards,

OpusnBill.

Re..

Hi OpesnBill,

the Public Service Managment Act of 1997 allows for any public servant to be dismissed by the Secretary General of a Department

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I'm sure that is the case but does it happen in practice? Would you accept that it is much less likely that public sector employees would be sacked?

company cars etc

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...BIK etc!

isn't there the slightest chance they might be er, manipulating the figures somewhat??

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There is every chance but there is just as much of a chance that the unions do the same.

This can be done by means of including figures on O/T, shift allowances (eg Gardai and prison officers) etc etc

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But that's what they get paid, people in the private sector do overtime, I do 15-25 hours a week of OT.

some of the payments are linked to structural change in the organisation or changing work practices

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The non union private sector (the real economy) don't get paid for that stuff. They are just glad that their jobs are a bit more secure at the end of it.

I don't want to knock the entire public sector. Many in it do great jobs and see very little reward for their hard work.
If you reward hard work you must also punish the slackers. The unions would never have that.
Due to the economic downturn my income dropped by over 25% between 2000 and 2002. It's up to about 90% of the 2000 level now.
I can't go on strike or moan at/threaten the government when th bad times come.
I am 14 years in the same job, if orders dry up I could be out on my ear in two months. I accept that, that's how the real world works.
What I do object to is public sector workers saying that you can draw comparisons between their conditions and those of people like me.

Re: Re..

I think before the last general election FG put forwarda a suggestion of cutting public sector jobs! They got slaughtered! The public sector went out in their droves to vote FF in my opinion! They know how cushy they have it.
Oh Pinchy has it in one by saying that they have the cushy 10-4 jobs bu the neglects to mention the 12.30 - 2pm lunch. Common sense should prevail here! People in the private sector have an axe hanging over their heads at all times whilst the public sector have the most secure jobs in the country and want even more! TDs should hammer down on the slackers and maybe we'd have a fairer country. The jobs could also be given on merit rather than the jobs for the boys approach!!

public sector hours and selection

Hi Rebhoy & OhPinchy,

(Purple - I'll get back to you separately)

Sorry I'm gonna have to pull you up on this one.

By your estimate we all have a 10-4 day which is 6 hours. We'll include our 12:30-2:30 lunch so by your reckoning we can drop to 4 hours per day?

To burst your bubble, the civil service (who have flexi-time) works like this

8:00-10:00am can clock at any time during this period

10:00-12:30pm Core time - must be in the office.


As for the selection process:-
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The jobs could also be given on merit rather than the jobs for the boys approach!!
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I think the good people of the Civil Service and Local Appointments Commission might take issue with you there. I 've had a number of positions in the Civil Service and they have been got by exam and competitive interview. I got what I got by my own merit - I don't owe anyone any favours and I'm sure 99% of the civil service would be in that category.

Admittedly there may be a few jobs at say messenger level which are within the gift of the Minister (and of course bringing in one or two of their own staff), but otherwise I completely reject your (Redbhoy's) allegation and demand you withdraw it immediately.


12:30-2:30pmcan key out for lunch - must take at least half an hour

2:30-4:00pm core time

4:00-7:00pm can key out during this period at any time.

In any event you must work 6 hours and fifty seven minutes per day - the advantage of flexi is that you can manage and build up time to take off later. I thought it was an effective and efficient way of getting around the trouble of commuting etc.

Re: public sector hours and selection

But that's less than 7 hours a day or 34.75 hours a week against the standard working hours of 39 or 12% less than the average eejit in a non-unionised job. Not to mention all the poor mugs who get stuck with unpaid overtime. What about all the flexi-days, longer holidays than standard (some grades have almost 30 I believe), complimentary days, study leave, exam leave, paid "sick" time, parental leave, "term time", personalised hours, time off to cash the cheque and (I kid you not!) time off early to beat the traffic on a races day (Roscommon County Council - check it out). I'd love to see an hourly rate for an average civil servant for actual hours worked compared with the same hourly rate for someone in a non-unionised job where every day you are not at work is unpaid unless its taken out of your holiday allocation. If benchmarking was really comparing this stuff, the civil service wouldn't know what hit them, IMHO.

Rebecca

having worked in both sectors, I'd say that the benefits of public sector work are only what all workers should get! Imagine the loyalty you'd inspire if everyone had them.

The governament goes on about health and home/work balance and would have egg on their faces if they didn't put their money where their mouth is.

Also there's a lot of jobs where you wouldn't get all the benefits cited of public sector work. I believe in NI they no longer pay for courses (although they give time off for study, if the course is relevant to work) as they say it's to your personal advantage and makes you more skilled/sought after.

Treat your workers well and they will repay you......

(Anyone see that book "Willing Slaves" on really inhuman corporate work practices?)

Re: public sector hours and selection

Hi Rebecca,

While the 34.75 is correct, you'll usually find that most people work over that minimum limit and would be closer too 38/39 hours.

As for unpaid overtime and not being in a union, well yes, the staff who do that are poor mugs...

Flexi days are earned if you build an EXCESS over the previous flexi-period. Nothing is for nothing!

Holidays CO 20 days rising to 21 after 5 years
EO 21 days rishing to 23 days
HEO 26 days rising to 29 after five years
AP PO would be 30/31 per annum. But these are senior staff and the levae package would be equivalent to outside.

Complementary days??? I don't know what this is -could you elaborate..?

Study and Exam leave are not unique by any means to the public sector...
Sick time (paid, but reclaimed from D/SFA , like private sector)

Pesonalised hours?? Could you elaborate? Unless you mean part-time work..

parental leave is standard (maternity and paternity leave)- I assume you mean term time?

Time off to cash the cheque - er yes, I had to check - it's added onto flexi clocks. sorry I thought that had gone!! Should be really in this day and age...

The Roscommon perk is something I never heard of but fair enough.

The hours worked per week is 35 hours, I don't see how the above reduces the number of hours viz-a-viz the rest of the population and that the civil service would be blown away by benchmarking.... I accept they are perks to people who use them, but in some cases these are available in the private sector too. I guess you make your bed and lie in it. By the way, I would consider these to be privileges rather than rights and if someone abuses them they should lose them.

Regards,

OpusnBill.

Re: Benchmarking.

Ah yes, IBEC that well know source of truth and fair play. Forgive me for saying this purple, but isn't there the slighest chance they might be er, manipulating the figures somewhat??

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Actually correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't it the ESRI and not IBEC that was quoting this figure in their recent report on the economy?

EB

Re: Benchmarking.

It was ESRI, and it said they were 13% better off BEFORE the last round of Benchmarking, not that they're 13% better off now.

So I'm guessing the next round of Benchmarking will involve widespread pay cuts, and longer working weeks.

"The value of Benchmarking can fall as well as rise.
Past performance is not a guide to future performance"

Rd-

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Yep...I agree, I'm sure it was ESRI not IBEC who produced this figure (well, it was mentioned in a report on the ESRI statement in yesterdays Irish Times)...so does OpusNBill wish to withdraw his comments about IBEC being subjective on this issue...or does think it applies to ESRI aswell.

In hindsight its amusing that OpusNBill can castigate the figures produced by IBEC on a purely speculatory basis, and yet is so ready to dismiss the anecdotal evidence that has been given against public sector workers...surely anecdotal evidence, however flimsy, is better than no evidence at all?

In my case I happen to know someone who assures me he can get away with 10-4 on a more than occasional basis...and yes the chances of getting away with taking a 1.5 hour lunch are higher in public than private sector. I have a mate whos job involves him doing consulting in revenue and he cant get over the work atmosphere...by his reckoning if an issue is raised after 2.30pm then itll definitely have to wait till tomorrow!

Re: Benchmarking.

Opusnbill

"While the 34.75 is correct, you'll usually find that most people work over that minimum limit and would be closer too 38/39 hours." The extra four hours would register in the flexi system, so would be paid in time off - therefore are not part of the working week.

Paid exam and study leave may not be unique to the civil service but they are very rare in non-unionised jobs. I know plenty of people who don't get them; some are lucky to be allowed take them unpaid, mostly such time off comes out of your 20 days holidays.

Note the 20 days above - that doesn't increase in most jobs regardless of how good you are or how long you have worked there. What's more most factory (and other businesses) jobs have their holidays entirely dictated by holiday closures and have little or no lee-way to take other time off.

Paid sick leave in non-unionised private sector does not exist, in most cases. If I am sick for less than 2 days I get zero pay. If it's more than that and I have a cert, then I can get the paltry social welfare benefit. If you are very lucky you might be part of a sick pay scheme, which is often laughable unless you are losing a kidney or something and in most cases the best you can hope for is a sympathetic boss who might take pity on you and get you a couple of days. But that's at their discretion and obviously leaves the employee in a tricky situation when some of that lovely unpaid overtime comes around again.

Complimentary days. Now I'm not an expert and am relying on a friend working in the dept of education who tells me that it is at least one (if not two or three days) off that don't come out of your holidays on an annual basis. I think one of these days is Christmas or New Year's eve. All days off, Christmas or otherwise come out of our allocation of 20 days (which you have no possiblity of increasing, remember). The same friend tells me that you get an extra 3 days holiday entitlement when you get married.

Opus, you can try and justify it all you like. I don't begrudge my friends in the Civil Service their extra time off but don't attempt to tell me that all these benefits somehow come out in the wash and that we are all on a level playing pitch. We simply are not. If you took the annual pay of the average civil servant and divided it by the the number of hours they were actually at their desks and compare it to an average non-unionised worker, I'd stake my sickpay on it that the civil servant would be quids in.

Rebecca