Bank is trying to defraud me!

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Correct.

There may be a moral obligation but a court is not interested in morals.
 
Should is the word. Ultimately if the bank has messed everything up they will have to suffer the loss. They won't be able to enforce.
 
Firstly, I'm not in a position to give you legal advice, and from your post, you don't need it.
Secondly, I have my own moral base, it's mine and I won't be imposing it on anyone. The same can be said for you - it's your private concern.
Cars parked.

You need to write to your Financial Instution (FI) and ask them for all relevant personal information about you under the Data Protection Acts 1988 and 2003 dataprotection-dot-ie ..click .. 'for individuals'.... 'know your rights'. As well as giving you access to all off your personal information (documents signed by you) it can include 'cctv' images i.e. if you know when you went into your FI - as in the date on the Credit Agreement (CA). Everyone can access their own personal information, your Father can (& should) do the same.

You should be given copies of your CA and older agreement. Check if they are look identical (hold one over the other up to a window). If you think the do engage the services of a respected forensic expert (legal circles should point you to 1 individual in Eire, you won't find him on google).

Once you get your personal information from your FI and you think you have a forgery on your hands, make an official complaint to your FI. Do not do this before your have the evidence in your hands. Information about this is at nca-dot-ie/nca/financialcomplaints (my 1st post here so can't post url's, workaround OK moderator?)

Stop communicating verbally with your FI.
It is your FI's right to enforce their rights as they see fit, i.e. legal. That's their decision, you will not be able to influence this in any way, nor should you. If they choose this course, as is their right, it sounds like you MAY (caveat, read my 1st sentence) have a possible defense under the Consumer Credit Act, and the potential forgery. Get legal advise at that point, the loan sum is relatively small so the legal expense won't be huge. As far as I am aware, you do not have any counterclaim against your FI, unjust enrichment etc.
If you don't pay, don't be under any illusions that they won't try and enforce their actions. Find a copy of the March 2011 'financial measures programme' online, go to page 24 under the heading 'asset quality review' and contemplate the words '...potential ability to remediate...'
Yes I know, different size and class of loans etc, but... think institutional mindset.

This is not advise or a recommenddation per se... but if I were in your shoes I would be getting some hard cold facts as opposed to "I'm, fairly sure" etc. you've got nothing until then.
 
Gekko said:
Some incredible opinions in this thread.

The OP borrowed the money and should therefore repay the money.
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Why when ordinary tax paying citizens are paying money to banks which the banks borrowed ? Why the double standard ?

Borrower citizens are not in general financial experts. If they are not given a clear explanation of their loan agreement in writing and in black and white consumer friendly terms then the bank should be morally obligated to take some kind of hit (assuming we were not already in a through the looking glass economy) and never ever to penalize the borrower with unexpectedly high interest rates and repayment schedules which they never agreed to , never had in writing and hence could never have hoped to budget for. The bank mis-sold a loan. They cant just hand out money and then make up the rules, interest rates and repayment schedules as they go along. Thats no better than an illegal moneylender. Now there is even an allegation of fraud which given past behaviours in the banking system wouldn't surprise me one bit if true.
 
Who cares if she has a moral obligation ,once she hasnt got a legal one
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The tax payer, whose hard earned money was given to banks to bail them out after they made crappy lending decisions?
 
Gekko said:
Some incredible opinions in this thread.

The OP borrowed the money and should therefore repay the money.
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Why are they incredible opinions .Just because you have a holier than tho attitude on everything doesnt mean we all do.

You must of been on the radio today aswell,They were talking about people getting away with penalty points and not getting fined .Callers were ringing up saying they knew they were speeding but got away with it .

What would you have them do,call in to the local garda station and say please take my money , I have sinned
 
beffers said:
The tax payer, whose hard earned money was given to banks to bail them out after they made crappy lending decisions?
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Yes they made crappy decisions ,and wrong ones and seem to have with the OP also havent they
 
The whole situation is very odd, however as you say uyou got the money lodged into your account so there will be records there as to where it was transferred from, who it was transferred to and all the relevant details, having said that if the bank forged any paperwork that is another serious issue. You say you are 99.9% sure you didn't sign and your 99.9% sure your dad didn't I also find that a bit odd, If by chance you decide not to pay it and play hardball with the bank they will return the compliment and there will be legal costs, interest costs and all the stress and hardship related with it. If you stand up in court you have both your word and your dads word of how the transaction took place, the bank will have a record of the money transferred into your account, your admission of having received it and used it AND a written agreement with both you and your dads signatures on it ( forged or otherwise that will be up to a judge ) i have a feeling you already know what way you are going to deal with it and this is a fishing expedition and the only piece of advice I would have is make your own decision and leave your dad out of it.
 

I think that's a very naive view of the way some banks operate, whether we like it or not.
You say that "the bank" did not forge the document, but some employee did. That may be the case. But the official line of communication from them was that they didn't have a credit agreement, then one appears. Someone must have sanctioned the forgery, someone in a position of authority. I'm sure it wasn't some desk clerk on his lunch hour fiddling around with the photocopier.

bullworth said:
Why when ordinary tax paying citizens are paying money to banks which the banks borrowed ? Why the double standard ?
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Yes, that's a fair point.


Yes, this is the crux of what I'm saying. Some people on the thread are missing the point.

Anyway, thanks for your reactions. I will keep you updated on developments.
 
I don't see how a bank would be able to enforce a loan unless they have the original written agreement. This kind of stuff is currently going on with Nama and the banks as plenty of LARGE loans we are paying for seem to be unenforceable.

If it were me I'd want to see the original, ask the bank for a meeting where you can see the original document. Personally a bank doing a forgery would not surprise me based on my life experiences with banks and the dirty tricks they pull.

What is quite surprising is that this was 2010 and banks were not as easy going as during the boom. Also surprising is that OP is not sure if she signing something and neither she nor her father know if he signed a guarantee, it's only less than 2 years ago.
 

I would not be so sure. Five of America's largest lenders fraudulently reproduced mortgage documents to foreclose on properties where the original documents were mislad.

Check out the recent extract from the CBS website below.

(CBS News)
Five of the nation's largest lenders reached a $25 billion settlement with the federal government Thursday over fraudulent and abusive lending practices leading up to the financial crisis.

One of those abusive practices was the use of "auto-pens" and signature mills, where workers signed thousands of documents each day paving the way for bank foreclosures. Drawing a small hourly wage, those workers were signing documents as high-level bank executives. Dozens, perhaps hundreds -- including men -- signed off as "Linda Green."
 
Not for this thread but that's very interesting Guns n Roses. What an alien concept, a government has found that a bank has used 'abusive' practices to diddle customers/innocent borrowers and must pay them compensation. We'll just stick with our marvelous new concept of moral hazzard for the little people but not the big boys.
 
Gekko said:
Some incredible opinions in this thread.

The OP borrowed the money and should therefore repay the money.
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Exactly. Its this type of attitude (OPs) that has the world in the financial mess that its in at the moment. All types of excuses, looking at loopholes etc. and blaming this person and that person. If you owe the money just pay it because the bottom line is if you don't the rest of us will have to in the long run
 
I have to say it sounds to me like the OP signed the agreement and has simply forgotten.

I would take excellent advice from Yerraboy above if you want to take it further. It sounds very far fetched that the bank would verbally agree and throw €8000 your way with nothing on paper.
 
I agree that the indications are that a loophole is being exploited in order not to repay this debt.
However the Banks do have a duty to comply with Consumer regulations and if they don't a borrower is within his/her rights to look for some measure of redress.
If the Bank have provided forged documentation to support their contention that all Consumer requirements have been met (which current remains unclear) then OP should progress the matter further.
These protections are there to cover all of us against unscruplous lending practises and forgery by a Bank employee would be a serious issue (if it is the case).
 
Totally agree....what bank clerk in back office is going to transfer €8000 into an account without the relevant paperwork to back up their actions....They bank in question may not have had the agreement in house two years after the loan was initially made..they probably had to have it pulled from off site security storage....thus the delay in producing the agreement....
 
Bizarre sequence of events.

It's 2010 not 2000 - I find amazing to believe that the funds could have been drawn down in the absence of a signed loan agreement.

Yerraboy's post about asking for "all personal information" does not mean that the bank will give you everything. They won't - as is their entitlement.
 
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