average salaries

PVP

Private sector standards on Public sector pay? Is there any such thing? None of the private companies I've worked for in the past had them.

Re: PVP

and the question should surely be why private sector companies
are underpaying their staff, not why public sectors are
overpaying.

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Jeezus H. C. this is fabulous. Curvey, the answer to this
question is that the private sector is largely governed by
basic and simple economic laws which mean that workers are
largely paid in accordance to their value. If they are paid
more than this, then the companies collapse causing general
hardship for all involved. Does this sound cruel and unfair?
No, that's just the way the grown up adult world works.
Unfortunately the public sector is largely shielded from
such realities because of the nature of public financing.

Maybe the entire private sector should threaten to strike
unless there is an immediate 30% pay rise for everyone? In
theory this could be done but immediately companies would fold
or move, unemployment would skyrocket, public finances would
collapse and we'd be back to the eighties. This extortionate
strategy has worked for the public sector because you are
effectively being supported by the incomes of those in the
private sector. Don't be surprised when private sector
workers complain when the burden gets heavier. It's
especially galling for the private sector to shoulder this
increasing burden while their finacial situation and job
security worsens by the day.

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<title>&quot;we all pay tax&quot;</title>
<pagetext>I donlt want to come across as public sector bashing but as regards the comment:

"We all pay tax, Darag, I pay as much as anyone else. Tax funds the country's administrations and we all pay it. "

I have two observations:

1. Unless the rules have changed, I thought civil servants paid lower PRSI.

2. Yes we all pay tax, but the public sector gets to continue to lean on the tax payer after retirement in a wholly disproportionate way. The argument that public service workers accept lower average wages for job security and better pensions has been shown to be palpably false. So is there any trade-off they make in exchange for the superb pensions? if there is, I can't see it. And it's not an issue where you can say that everybody should have a pension like those we give civil servants. The fact is, no private sector body could hope to underwrite the risk of such a liability - only the state, hobbled by political imperatives- is stupid enough to try.

As the demographics of this country change, the public sector pension bill is going to become a serious headache. There is in my view no moral justification for making tomorrow's taxpayers support today's public sector workers. But, unfortunately, there is no real alternative.

And it's no use saying that we should give out to the policiticans: we all know that they haven't got the political courage to tackle this. Does that make it right, or in any way morally defensible for the public sector unions to mortgage our children's future prosperity? I don't think so.

Re: "we all pay tax"

morally defensible

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Getting onto seriously dodgy ground here! A tit-for-tat on the morally defensible acts of the public vs the private sectors could be interesting!!

tedd

.

My own award is less than 2.5 percent

Lucky you! - out here, in the real world, we are struggling to make sure our 'reward' isn't slashed by 20%! (this is no exaggeration)

Anyone out there work for AIB?

Come on now! - the AIB might as well be a public sector company.

I get paid what I'm worth and deliver a fine service in return.

Indeed. Out here, we get paid as little as possible! (and deliver a fine service - or get the boot)

PVP

What point are you trying to make? Should I get paid less to make you feel better or something? What would that solve, apart from the incessant whinging?

.

[/b]What point are you trying to make? Should I get paid less to make you feel better or something?

Yes, not just to make me feel better though.

I would go further and say for true benchmarking, if private sector jobs go, so too should public sector ones.


What would that solve, apart from the incessant whing

It would reduce the tax burden, and drastically reduce inflation.

?

(Why can't I edit my posts? - I'm sure I used to be able to before.)

PVP

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I would go further and say for true benchmarking, if private sector jobs go, so too should public sector ones.
*****************************************

Fine we'll start laying off nurses and firemen. Any more brilliant ideas?

******************************************
It would reduce the tax burden, and drastically reduce inflation.
*****************************************

No it wouldn't.

Re: PVP

Fine we'll start laying off nurses and firemen. Any more brilliant ideas?

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No, they are actually needed. We could get rid of the useless pen pushers.

PVP

Wow! I see now how out of my depth am on this debate. The remarkable and insightful wit of Dowee's post has made me see the light. I'm sorry for wasting all of your time.

Please direct any more queries to Dowee since he seems to have a knowledge of the public service that requires no qualified arguments in order to make point. Useless pen pushers. How did I not notice? And what a brilliant piece of creativity on Dowees part to coin that phrase.

I am humbled. Its been fun, but now I'm going back to the private sector to suffer with the rest of you non-useless pen pusher types. Apologies again, particularly to Dowee who flexed his giant intellect and rubbished all the valid points on both sides of the argument with a one line generic statement . How lucky we are to have him.

Curvy out.

PVP

Sarcasm is best kept short. Otherwise people are tired of YOUR comments before they get to the end of your post.

Re: PVP

Curvy, I deliberately didn't address any of the issues mentioned above and was not trying to make any statement on them I was merely addressing your ridiculous comment with an equally ridiculous one. Hence the reason I put your comment in quotes before mine. Sorry the irony was lost on you. Maybe you need to benchmark the public sector's grasp of irony with the private sector's . Again a joke (probably not a funny one), lighten up!!!

Benchmarking folly

I think MOB put his finger on it when he said:

The argument that public service workers accept lower average wages for job security and better pensions has been shown to be palpably false. So is there any trade-off they make in exchange for the superb pensions? if there is, I can't see it.

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Our multi-seat STV PR system means that no government will ever have the neck to stand up to the public sector unions, or the social welfare spongers, and tell them to get their snout out of the trough.

Re: Benchmarking folly

or the social welfare spongers

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Hi Sueellen - While I share some of the sentiment of your last post, I understand that there have been substantial clampdowns on social welfare fraud in the last 5 years approx. Many of those who were living on the dole at that time have now been 'forced' out to work.

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Rainyday, I'd love to see a link to this. (To see how many people have been caught & what punishments were given out etc.)

Fraud

Hi AP - I don't have any links/hard data on this. I was speaking in terms of anecdotal evidence.

Re MOB's comment

Just in connection with MOB's comment about Civil Servants paying a lower rate of PRSI. The rules did change on this approx 8 years ago and all new entrants now pay PRSI at the standard rates. Those who joined previously continue to pay PRSI at the lower rates and continue to make all the benefits associated with paying at the higher rate unavailable to themselves.

..

Those who joined previously continue to pay PRSI at the lower rates and continue to make all the benefits associated with paying at the higher rate unavailable to themselves.

Click to expand...

I think most people would opt to pay 5 or 6% lower taxes for the meagre benefits that you get for PRSI payments.

No need for civil servants to congratulate themselves because some of them now pay the same taxes as us in the private sector.

Is mise le meas

CM