Ask About Money needs stricter control

Is AAM neutral? In my opinion No it is not. It has become corrupted by a few both on the posting and on the moderating side of the fence.

Are consumer interests still being upheld? In my opinion NO.

Does someone ask a question out of sheer boredom and then come back and answer it? Is there too much self advertising going on? Is there incorrect deletion of material? Inappropriate positioning of posts?

I have discussed this point with a few colleagues and the consensus was that we didn't think all is as neutral as it appears on AMM and that its going downhill pretty quickly. We should draw attention to the fact.

Here is what I think needs to be done now:

1. No more unregistered users.
2. Only registered users should be allowed to post and reply all through an editor, not necessarily individual moderators.
3. If a person wants to post then they have to register although by doing so they can choose remain anonymous.
4. If individual moderators are the preferred methood of control then it should be clear, by name, and qualification, precisely who is moderating each forum.
5. The editor (moderator) should have the necessary competence and comprehension of financial matters which will enable an unbiased view on the suitability of the posts and their subsequent replies.

I really feel we must re examine the current direction least this valuable resource looses all credibility.

No more unregistered users.

Click to expand...

And you are?

Of course AAM is not neutral. It is a community of people at different stages in their life and consequently, different views on what's important. The good thing about AAM is the wide variety of opinions (and the debates). A good example was the debate(s) on the need for private health insurance.

Not many people would visit if the only opinion was Brendan's or whomever you would pay for expert professional advice. If this happened, there would be no need for the forums and people could just read his guide.

Sluice

It might help us to understand your feedback if you point to specific examples of the kinds of problem posts which concern you.

Accountability

is the key. Registered users confirmed by unique email address on one side, and mods who note action taken and why - no big rigmarole just 'Deleted re: rule 6' or whatever.

As for evidence of worthwhile posts being vanished. Em, well, they're gone.

Am I the only one who thinks it a bit odd that unregistered users are calling for all users to be registered?

And one who is complaining about the moderation is asking for all posts to be screened?

The basic Askaboutmoney has not changed. People are asking questions and they are being answered. What has happened is that some users are abusing the Letting Off Steam forum by posting rubbish or offensive posts which are lowering the tone of AAM. The moderators are discussing how best to address this problem while maintaining the ethos of Askaboutmoney.

I have full confidence in the moderators. They are selected based on the quality of their contributions to Askaboutmoney. They do a great unpaid job. That doesn't mean that we all agree. I have a lower tolerance of rubbish than some of the others. I don't know how many times I have said it, but I will say it again - the moderators would prefer to be answering questions to reading and editing offensive posts and rubbish. None of us is going to waste any more time in discussing why we edit or delete such posts.

Stop carping. If you want to improve the Askaboutmoney experience have a look at the "Would you like to update our key posts?" forum. It's two weeks, since we invited people to help out and there has not been one contribution yet.

Brendan

Hi John

As a general principle, we minimise the amount of moderation taking place. Less is more, as Jem sometimes reminds us. In general, the only posts edited/deleted are;

- offensive posts or language
- potentially defamatory posts about individuals/companies
- 'trolling' posts in the below-the-line debate forums, i.e. simple provocation with no value-added.

The financial/technical knowledge of the moderator is pretty much irrelevant. If an incorrect answer is posted, the best outcome is for another poster to post a correction in public, so there can be an open, transparent debate on the issue. To me, this is far preferable to behind-the-scenes moderation.

The idea of having all replies screened through an editor is hugely impractical, regardless of its rights and wrongs. Who has the time to screen hundreds of posts a day? The only Irish bulletin board that does this (afaik) is irishhealth.com, which is a commercial site with advertising income.

I'm not sure why you see the need for mods to be identifiable by name/qualification. If you are concerned about 'conflict of interest', you can rest assured that most of the mods know most of the other mods and Brendan knows ALL of the mods. So between ourselves, we ensure there is no conflict of interest amongst the mods.

Making registration mandatory for ALL forums would create a significant hurdle for the average first-time poster who has a specific question. The harder we make it for such people to post, the further we get away from our core mission. We frequently see individuals who make their first posts unregistered coming back and registering later, once they get hooked on AAM. Perhaps there is an arguement for making registration required on some of the below-the-line debate forums to stop the kind of childish trolling that happened in recent weeks?

Toot toot's suggestion about 'mods who note action taken and why - no big rigmarole just 'Deleted re: rule 6' or whatever' is sensible and is normal practice (look around and you'll find examples of my 'post containing obscenities deleted' by-line. However, the downside of this is the inevitable 'why was my post deleted' debates which sap time that could otherwise be spent on contributing to AAM.

I'm still not really sure what problem your suggestions are aimed at solving. Again, if you can give specific examples or more background, that will help us to understand your feedback.

..

Toot Toot said some accountability could be obtained by "registered users confirmed by unique email address on one side".

I don't see how this would give greater accountability anyhow; how long does it take to open a free e-mail account?

..

Can't a thief say stealing is wrong?

OK. Sorry.

There is no problem, everything is fine.

Please go back to your business.

PS. It's an excellent board anyway.

Re: AAM

Hi John

Your post is interesting. Why on earth do you think that somebody would ask a question out of boredom and come back and answer it? I don’t think that there is a serial poster out there spending their time on AAM. Do you not believe that AAM is a thriving community of people, both registered and unregistered? AAM is busier now than is was this time last year and so much busier than when I first started to post.

May I ask why you chose to post in this instance as an unregistered poster? It does seem a bit strange to suggest registration as a means of improving AAM and then to post as an unregistered user. Not that it matters of course. All posters are welcome. AAM's policy is to respect the privacy of others. [Guideline 16] As a matter of fact, there are some people on AAM who have chosen to identify themselves and their company and who give freely of their time and expertise to AAM. Why do you believe that this policy needs to be changed?

AAM is primarily a discussion forum where people can ask questions concerning financial matters. They like to read what others in similar positions might do. They also know that there are many people who contribute to AAM with specific financial expertise who may, or may not, reply to their specific question. It is a model which is working extremely well. They may decide to act on any advice given or not. What’s important, however, is that the service is being provided and people are given a wonderful opportunity to become well-informed on financial matters. Of course, we can all read newspapers, business magazines, trot down to the various institutions/brokers and become informed in this way, but the personal experience of others can often be more educational.

Why do you believe that consumer interests are not being upheld on AAM? Is easy access to an abundance of financial information in a friendly, stress-free environment not the key to being a better consumer?

With regard to your concerns about Moderators, we come from diverse backgrounds – some from the financial area and some from the non-financial area. A Moderator’s job/role/function on AAM is not to provide financial information, but rather to facilitate the access of information to others in an open and professional environment.

I hope you will post again in response to the replies given.

Marion :hat

AAM

Thanks for your feedback. I'll post a reply as soon as I get a moment.

J

Re.AAM

Hi all,
I haven't been reading or posting on AAM for very long but I think that the moderators do a very good job and I don't understand why there is such criticism of people who do a job for nothing!
Any interests are, from what I can see, declared by the moderators and every effort is made to be balanced.
They must spend a considerable amount of time doing their jobs here so the amount of time spent answering questions about why they did this or that must be very irk-sum.

John - it would be a good idea if you could provide examples of the type of misuse/abuse of AAM that you mention in your original post above (i.e. alleged lack of neutrality, alleged lack of consumer interest/orientation, nuisance/bored posters etc.). I have an idea of the type of stuff that you're talking about but would be interested in hearing precisely the sort of content that you object to. Like any bulletin board/discussion forum AAM is not perfect and depends primarily on its contributors for the quality of content. However, in general, the vast majority of contributors post their questions and views in good faith and without bias (or declare potential bias through disclaimers) and consequently the quality of the content and discussions on the site tends to be pretty high. The sporadic need for moderation (also not an exact science!) - again done in good faith and hopefully generally without bias on the part of the moderators - tends to weed out content that is not constructive for one reason or another. Thankfully this happens a lot less frequently than one might imagine. As a moderator myself I have always argued against mandatory registration because (a) many people don't want to or can't register (b) some of the best regular or sporadic contributions over the years have come from unregistered users and (c) to date any abuse/misuse of the board by nuisance posters hasn't really warranted instituting mandatory registration as a palliative measure. I have also disagreed with certain moderator decisions such as the introduction of forums such as The Craic and some others that don't have a primarily [consumer] finance orientation but accepted these decisions when I was in the minority. Ideally I would prefer AAM to maintain its primary focus on matters financial but as the popularity of some of the less finance orientated forums show there seems to be a demand for more wide ranging discussion here. Ultimately AAM will continue to grow and adapt in line with the demands of its contributing community, as has happened over the years, and constructive feedback is always welcome.

Thank you. I don't to be drawn into specific examples or analyzing individual weaknesses as its not my objective.

As an overall strategy I can't see why AAM couldn't stand on its own and become a commercial success by leaving ezBoard.

Registering would be one of those steps. But its an unfamiliar process.

A first time user needs to know the competency of the person answering his/her question. Likewise they also need to know the level of expertise of those who moderate each forum.

Registering and filtering through an editor achieves personal responsibility, not only in the quality and meaningfulness of the posts but also in the quality of the replies and bickering that we sometimes witness.

Many have left this board because their spirits were broken by what really amounted to petty orchestrating.

Be they doctors, aviation experts, solicitors, intermediaries, if their strength was recognised and welcomed and they would still be onboard.

I believe people don't necessarily want a quick answer they want the right answer and I feel the site is becoming too fragmented. Let someone else's web site specialise in gardening, let Egon Ronay recommend restaurants, let Michelin award the stars to a good bed for the night. Ask About Money's niche is asking about money. This is where it should excel.

I'm not surprised that people don't clamber for the job of moderator. Its appears to be a full 24 hour job.

It is of utmost importance to build on and improve the spirit of Ask About Money and if it means making subtle changes then why not. But please don't shoot one of the messengers.

Hi John

I don't think anybody is shooting the messenger, but your message is rather vague. You haven't attempted to provide answers to any of your previous allegations.

I honestly don't think that the moderator's job is a 24/7 one. There are times when there are contentious issues, but that's life. We deal with them and we get on with it. We are not immature adolescents bearing grudges, we just move on the next issue/topic. We also have lives outside of AAM. I'm sure it is a hobby for most of us. Nothing more, nothing less.

Who specifically has left the Board? I'm sure people do move on to different things. There is nothing in the posting guidelines which states that one is commited to AAM for life. There is no life-time contract.

I don't agree that a first-time user needs to know the competecy of the person who answers nor the competency of the moderator. People realise that they are on a discussion forum and it is quite clear from the posting guidelines that those who post have either experience or expertise. [Guideline 6] We are responsible adults who can deal with information and who can either decide to take on board the advice given or not. Often, there is no right answer to a query. People need to weigh up the information given and assess it in relation to their own position.

I'm somewhat disappointed that you didn't spill the beans and spell out exactly what it is you wanted to say initially. We are grown up here. We can take it and nobody is going to shoot the messenger. But, we reserve the right of reply.

Marion :hat

Hi John - No-one is shooting you, but its not unreasonable to ask you to support your comments. I'm fascinated by your comment that 'many have left' - can you please advise what this is based on? Do you know the 'many' personally? Have they told you their reasons for leaving?

And of course, if you're not interested in restaurants or politics or DVD's, just don't read those threads/forums. No-one twists your arm or forces you to read them. I'm not clear on why you think that removal of these forums would improve the remainder of the boards - more detail please....

My goodness such aggression rainyday and thank you for the example. This is precisely the type of long term damage I was talking about. Perhaps you could link to some more for me?

The above are my views and I don't feel I have to restate them.

So 'precision questioning' = aggression then? Interesting...... This is just a diversion - No-one is asking you to restate your views. You are being asked to support them.

Without support, we take the feedback as the views of one individual. With support, anything is possible...

aggression

John doesnt register yet calls for all to register. He doesnt respond with examples of allegations after repeated calls for them, yet stands by them. He accuses rainy of aggression (John,how long have you been on AAM??, if rainy wanted to be aggressive, youd know about it), when he/shes not being aggressive.
Me is getting a whiff of trolling. Tho very well done, mind you.

If John isnt, then I'll repeat what all the mods are saying. If you dont like to read DAAM posts, then dont read them.

Re: trolling

I don't know if John is trolling, but I do agree that if he doesn't back up his points they're essentially just his vague opinion.

One thing I would love to see the back of is the trolling that's going on, especially in Letting off Steam and DAAM.
I spend a lot of my time in those forums and am saddened by the amount of good debates which turn into slagging matches or get turned on their head because trolls keep popping up making wild accusations and then disappearing. I admit I sometimes have a hot head in these matters, but the tai chi is helping!
Is there a solution to it besides ignoring them? I'd much rather see the back of this completely. There's a lot of current affairs issues which have become nearly impossible to debate!

Thank you. I don't to be drawn into specific examples or analyzing individual weaknesses as its not my objective.

No offence intended John but complaining about certain content but then declining to provide specific examples seems to be a bit like the boy crying wolf and makes it difficult for others to properly consider your feedback.

As an overall strategy I can't see why AAM couldn't stand on its own and become a commercial success by leaving ezBoard.

Registering would be one of those steps. But its an unfamiliar process.

I suspect that you've misunderstood the fundamental point of AAM - it is deliberately a non-commercial venture which is designed to be a voluntary and co-operative community facilitating the discussion of Irish (personal and other) financial matters (and more these days). It generates no revenue never mind profits and is kindly funded by Brendan, its original sole founder, out of his own pocket. I don't understand the point about ezBoard since this is simply the bulletin board hosting platform that is used to host AAM and has generally been more reliable than the previous incarnation hosted on an Irish ISP using the UBB (Ultimate Bulletin Board) Perl/CGI based script system. In contrast to the old system (ISP hosting was unreliable and UBB was slow/inefficient) ezBoard is more reliable and provides for relatively straightforward administration. ezBoard is simply a hosting service provider to AAM and otherwise has no interest or say in the running of the site. Registration is an option on ezBoard and at the moment the consensus is to leave it optional for use of AAM.

A first time user needs to know the competency of the person answering his/her question. Likewise they also need to know the level of expertise of those who moderate each forum.

I disagree. In many cases some of the best and most accurate answers to queries have been provided by contributors who have learnt about stuff through direct experience and investigation rather than through formal qualifications. This is not to denigrate those valued contributors who do come from a background of professional expertise in one or more relevant areas. To a large extent contributors' views are valued (or not) based on their reputation and track record on AAM. In any case, inaccurate information is generally swiftly rebutted or corrected by more knowledgeable contributors.

Note that AAM does not purport to be a substitute for independent, professional advice as explained in the .

Registering and filtering through an editor achieves personal responsibility, not only in the quality and meaningfulness of the posts but also in the quality of the replies and bickering that we sometimes witness.

I agree that some bouts of bickering (and worse) are annoying and distracting but I don't believe that they are prevalent enough to justify stricter control on who and what can be posted.

Many have left this board because their spirits were broken by what really amounted to petty orchestrating.

Be they doctors, aviation experts, solicitors, intermediaries, if their strength was recognised and welcomed and they would still be onboard.

Again, without specific examples, it's hard to comment on this but it is pertinent to note that many of our long term contributors are acting professionals in different areas.

believe people don't necessarily want a quick answer they want the right answer and I feel the site is becoming too fragmented. Let someone else's web site specialise in gardening, let Egon Ronay recommend restaurants, let Michelin award the stars to a good bed for the night. Ask About Money's niche is asking about money. This is where it should excel.

As I mentioned earlier I would have a similar view that non core financial topics are not really relevant to AAM but I accept that the moderator and general contributor consensus seems to place you and me in a minority at the moment. This does not prevent people posting links to more appropriate sites where relevant.

It is of utmost importance to build on and improve the spirit of Ask About Money and if it means making subtle changes then why not. But please don't shoot one of the messengers.

Well trying to maintain previous and existing standards would be a start but improvement should probably be a higher goal all right! But seriously, feedback such as your own is indeed welcome but I would strongly encourage you to back up specific criticisms with specific examples if at all possible. If you are not willing to do so here then perhaps you might consider sending them to Brendan or one of the moderators by email or ezBoard personal message?