Article by FINTAN O'TOOLE in Irish Times today says it all

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NOAH

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Its worth reproducing every day in every paper for the foreseeable future and maybe just maybe the TD's and others may see the light. Too many in this country are paid far far more than they are worth.

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noah
 
"Only people who earn more than me don't deserve it"

He used to favour capping salaries at 80,000. Must have got himself a payrise.
 
Anyone else think that our bond rates would fall if FOT's proposal to cap public salaries at 100k was implemented?
 
Why would you limit this to public sector salaries? If we really want to bring prices down, then it should be an across the board cap - maximum salary for everybody. Could be done fairly easily through taxation.
 
But why for the private sector?

If you are CEO of a successful exporter like Kerry Group and most of your profits are abroad, who does someone get to dictate your wages?

Dawn Foods signed a 700 million euro contract to supply Subway for Europe and now the top people's salary are too high it seems
 
I see, so the only achievements that we recognise and reward are financial achievements by businesses. Achievements in provide excellent public services are not worthy of reward.
 
Complainer said:
I see, so the only achievements that we recognise and reward are financial achievements by businesses. Achievements in provide excellent public services are not worthy of reward.
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Apples and oranges Complainer. Think of it this way, if Glanbia were struggling and making losses, their shareholders would more than likely demand pay cuts at the top. Do you think this should mean that Ryanair who are making profits should also cut the pay of their board? We (as shareholders in the public sector of this country) should be entitled to demand pay caps in the public sector as we contribute towards their pay, but we have no such right to demand anything of private companies.
 
Complainer said:
I see, so the only achievements that we recognise and reward are financial achievements by businesses. Achievements in provide excellent public services are not worthy of reward.
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Where are the excellent public services?
I do agree though - people should be paid well when they do a good job, and be sacked or demoted when they don't. It's the latter part of the equation that we are missing here.
 
Complainer said:
Why would you limit this to public sector salaries? If we really want to bring prices down, then it should be an across the board cap - maximum salary for everybody. Could be done fairly easily through taxation.
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I presume this is 100% meant to point out how silly salary caps are?

I normally disagree with Tintin O' Fool and reckon he regularly displays gaping holes in his understanding of the subject matter at hand, but I like the spirit of this to an extent.

Let's not have civil unrest, instead, could someone put together a huge petition whereby we the public agree to endure certain cuts subject to say a 25% to 30% cut in the pay of politicians and very senior civil servants.

I agree with the idea that politicians and the most senior public servants should be as capable and well paid as those in the private sector but I just don't see that paying higher salaries has attracted better people over the last 10 years.

Politics is dominated by dynasties and this is a big hurdle to getting more capable people involved as is the parochial nature of the current structure.

The public service, meanwhile, is not structured like a private enterprise. There is very little performance appraisal and a bigger likelihood of advancement through years experience than capability. Coupled with the fact that it seems difficult for someone who hasn't come up through the ranks to get in, it makes the likelihood of having top civil servants on a par with those in private enterprise lower.

So, yes get the most capable people into politics and the top layers of the public service and pay them their worth. But paying the incumbants salaries comparable to the best in the private sector alone does not attract the most capable.

Alter the structures to open up politics and the top layers of the public service to the most capable and then pay higher salaries. In the meantime, the incumbants shouldn't expect €100-200k p.a. plus for simply taking over their daddy's seat or steadily working their way through the layers of civil service for 20 years with no great ability.

By the way, there are plenty of examples of less capable people in the private sector top jobs e.g. banks, but I do believe by and large that the private sector tolerates this to a lesser extent
 

Actually, we do - we have the right to demand that private companies pay there fair share of tax for start, which they aren't doing at present.

shnaek said:
Where are the excellent public services?
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The media aren't that interested in hearing about great public services. They don't report on the 1000's of medical procedures carried out successfully each day. They report on the one that screwed up. They don't report on the 1000's of safety inspections carried out by HSA staff every day. They don't report on the 1000s of tourists that visit the National Museum/National Gallery/Cliffs of Moher each day. There are plenty of excellent public services out there. Don't expect them to hit the headlines.


Firefly said:
Because we'd, the taxpayers, can't afford to pay them.
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But we, the consumers, can afford to pay the exorbitant salaries?


There are certainly some outragous salaries within the public sector, and particularly within some specific agencies. It's a sad day when I find myself agreeing with Shane Ross, but when he pointed out that the head of the Irish Human Rights Commission earns more than the SecGen of the UN, we know that something has gone badly wrong.

Many of your criticisms of the public services are about 10 years out of date. Recruitment at senior level has been open to all, including private sector people for a few years now. We've just seen the Eircom guy taking over as head of HSE, for example. Your points about performance management have been addressed for some years now with PMDS - it's not a perfect system, but it is about as effective as anything I've seen in the private sector. The political dynasties are more a symptom of political interest in families than about families holding onto power. Party members don't suffer fools gladly, and the next generation don't get into party positions unless they are capable.

However, one-sided caps would be a recipe for a disaster. It would drive the best and brightest out of the public sector for a generation. If we don't have great public servants, we won't have great public services.
 
Complainer said:
But we, the consumers, can afford to pay the exorbitant salaries?
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Consumers have where competition exists a choice on what goods/services they buy in the private sector

Complainer said:
However, one-sided caps would be a recipe for a disaster. It would drive the best and brightest out of the public sector for a generation. If we don't have great public servants, we won't have great public services.
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Drive them where exactly...the private sector?
 
Complainer said:
Actually, we do - we have the right to demand that private companies pay there fair share of tax for start, which they aren't doing at present.
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Huh? What's that got to do with the discussion on salary caps? You seem to be arguing just for the sake of it today Complainer!
 
Ceist Beag said:
Huh? What's that got to do with the discussion on salary caps? You seem to be arguing just for the sake of it today Complainer!
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Fair point- siege mentality!

Firefly said:
Consumers have where competition exists a choice on what goods/services they buy in the private sector
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Indeed - a chose of a whole range of suppliers that all pay exorbitant salaries to their head honchos. Hobson's choice.

Firefly said:
Drive them where exactly...the private sector?
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To the private sector, or to Europe, or the UN, or to retirement. Take your pick.
 
Complainer said:
Fair point- siege mentality!


Indeed - a chose of a whole range of suppliers that all pay exorbitant salaries to their head honchos. Hobson's choice.
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Only because they can...if they're not profitable they can't.

Complainer said:
To the private sector, or to Europe, or the UN, or to retirement. Take your pick.
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Last time I looked there were not too many positions with salaries and benefits like that in the private sector. Europe and the UN - paid by taxpayers somewhere else, retirement - paid by taxpayers here.
 
Firefly said:
Only because they can...if they're not profitable they can't.
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Indeed - because they can get away with charging excessive prices, because every one else charges pretty much the same prices.

Firefly said:
Last time I looked there were not too many positions with salaries and benefits like that in the private sector. Europe and the UN - paid by taxpayers somewhere else, retirement - paid by taxpayers here.
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How hard did you look?

10+ jobs at €100k here; http://jobsearch.monster.ie/Search.aspx?q=€100k&cy=ie&lid=173

EU grade AD11 or higher would exceed €100k pa.

1 x AD11 post; http://europa.eu/epso/apply/today/spe_en.htm
3 x AD12 posts; http://europa.eu/epso/apply/on_going_compet/hou/index_en.htm
5 x AD12 posts; http://europa.eu/epso/apply/on_going_compet/adm/index_en.htm
 
Fintan has been busy writing his new book ("Fintan O’Toole will discuss his new book, Enough is Enough , at a public forum in Liberty Hall theatre in Dublin on Thursday at 7.30pm") but I didn't think he'd get Vincent Browne to do his homework for him!

BTW, I hope Fintan doesn't claim the artists tax exemption for his books (though if only we all agreed with him we'd be living in a socialist utopia).

Look, the core problem isn't that the people are the top are overpaid. The core problem is that they aren't able to do their job. In that I agree with him but the notion of a pay cap for the sake of it, in the public or private sector, in populist rubbish. Increase income taxes for high earners or whatever but a pay cap is daft.
 
I agree purple. I have no problem paying people high salaries but I do have a problem with them not doing their job or having any sort of accountability. Amazing how high salary seems to equate to zero responsibility. It's the one common feature that the public and private sector share.
 
I'm fed up with Fintan O'Toole. Never off the bloody radio. All because he has yet another book to sell.

And time Matt Cooper stopped the love-in with Fintan.
 
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