Are we taking uninsured driving seriously?

I was astonished to hear on the radio this morning that someone caught driving without insurance can get up to 5 penalty points?

I would have just assumed that for a first offence, the would get as standard...

1) The car would be confiscated and sold
2) They would get a driving ban of at least 5 years

If there were mitigating circumstances, a judge could reduce that e.g. The driver thought he was covered on his father's policy but wasn't or cover had expired a day earlier.


There appears to be 120,000 uninsured drivers on the road.

But they are seizing 50 cars a day which I assume means that they are seizing them but returning them, rather than confiscating them.

The Motor Insurers Bureau spends €70m a year in claims, and recovers about €1m from the uninsured drivers.

No wonder people don't take it seriously.

I see it's not the first time we have discussed this.


Brendan

Insured drivers are paying €35 each in higher insurance to pay for the uninsured drivers.

This should either be scrapped and charged to general taxation or else itemised separately and highlighted on every insurance quote so that people know that they are paying this.

Brendan

You can be put off the road for up to 4 years, fined €5000 and jailed for 6 months so the deterrents are there but in most cases the judges don't apply them, unless it is for a serial repeat offender and I have seen cases where such an offender was jailed.



I have seen checkpoints for tax and insurance (one on Saturday night as an example, they had a driver pulled over).

We've the same problem here, as we do with many other issues - we're just not tough on crime.

We've an excuse for every occasion, poor little Johnny came from a broken home, the prisons are over crowded, the guidelines for sentencing are too weak, blah blah blah.

When we get tough on crime, we'll have less crime. It's that simple in my view, regardless of the crime in question.

All true, but first we have to catch them. I do 15,000 Km annually and could not tell you when I last came upon a checkpoint, a few years at least.

I would argue that it should be automatically disqualified for 5 years and the car confiscated.

They could appeal that if they have mitigating circumstances.

We have to take it seriously.


Brendan

I would argue that it should be automatically disqualified for 5 years and the car confiscated.

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Seizing a car worth several thousand € to someone who really needs it may concentrate their efforts to regularize the situation.

However where the car is bought from done deal or similar for less than a a few grand means the driver has made the economic decision to go down a certain path.

Many of the reports of court cases mention that it is the offenders first offence for example 2024 , 2023 & 2022.
The problem with some uninsured (or unlicensed) drivers, is at a certain point the deterrence becomes meaningless.

If you have very little income and no assets, you might as well drive without insurance.

You might be fined - just don't pay it. There is no follow up.

You keep your car.

You get a few points on your license but so what.

Do you even have to provide a valid insurance certificate to get your car back after it has been seized?

Brendan

Brendan Burgess said:

Insured drivers are paying €35 each in higher insurance to pay for the uninsured drivers.

This should either be scrapped and charged to general taxation or else itemised separately and highlighted on every insurance quote so that people know that they are paying this.

Brendan

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I do t understand why the compliant are penalized.

Surely the cost of any claim involving an uninsured driver can be lodged against the uninsured driver? Assets seized etc to pay claim if not compliant.

Permanent ban from driving and a criminal conviction

Brendan Burgess said:

If you have very little income and no assets, you might as well drive without insurance.

You might be fined - just don't pay it. There is no follow up.

You keep your car.

You get a few points on your license but so what.

Do you even have to provide a valid insurance certificate to get your car back after it has been seized?

Brendan

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Assuming most are not genuine or mitigating circumstances you can also be sure that they also have no road tax or nct. Triple offense

rustbucket said:

Surely the cost of any claim involving an uninsured driver can be lodged against the uninsured driver? Assets seized etc to pay claim if not compliant.

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The guy on the radio said that most have no assets and that they pursue them and get a judgement which lasts for 12 years. That will stop them from getting a mortgage or borrowing money.

They recover about €1m a year and pay out €70m

Brendan

Brendan Burgess said:

If you have very little income and no assets, you might as well drive without insurance.

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And without taxing the car, putting it through the NCT, or even obtaining a driving licence. Just put a photocopy of an insurance disc and NCT cert on the windscreen and you'll probably get away with it, unless you're very unlucky.

And even if you are caught, then so what?

You get penalty points or may even be banned from driving, but seeing as you've got no licence to surrender, you just carry on exactly as before.

And you're fined but, as Brendan writes, you don't bother to pay and nothing happens.

Or maybe you're given a suspended sentence which is about as impactful as being hit on the head by a low flying butterfly.

And in the highly unlikely event that you are sent to prison, you'll probably be released 24-48 hours later because our prisons are overflowing.

Add to this that if you are in a crash then you'll probably get a (taxpayer funded) free legal aid lawyer to defend you - you just can't lose in Ireland of the donkey!

The one sanction that might work is the confiscation and scrapping of the offending vehicle; so - obviously - that's the one that seldom happens!

Do you even have to provide a valid insurance certificate to get your car back after it has been seized?

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I think that you just turn up with an insured family member or pal and s/he is allowed to drive the car away. You probably have to pay the impoundage and towing charges, but that's about it.

We have a system where your insurance lapses every 12 months unless you take active steps to renew. This is quite different to health insurance.

Many people are cynically avoiding insurance, but I think more people are just forgetful.

I’ve been insured for 20-odd years and am pretty diligent but there was a ten day period once where I was without insurance due to my own oversight.

Brendan Burgess said:

I was astonished to hear on the radio this morning that someone caught driving without insurance can get up to 5 penalty points?

I would have just assumed that for a first offence, the would get as standard...

1) The car would be confiscated and sold
2) They would get a driving ban of at least 5 years

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The solution is the car is confiscated, and will not be released until the driver proves they have insurance and pays an impound fee that pays for the whole procedure of towing the car, impounding it and admin of paperwork.

No need for a driving ban. I'd also impose a one month impound max, maybe 2 weeks, and then it gets sold/scrapped if not claimed back.

. I'd also impose a one month impound max, maybe 2 weeks, and then it gets sold/scrapped if not claimed back

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Slightly off topic but linked.
Over the years I have watched the cars that were obviously abandoned when their owners flew home sit in the airport carpark.
The airport had to wait until the value of the car had dropped below the book value if the car before they took action.

Same type scenario could apply here.
The "owner" would make a decision along the following.
The fine and impound fee are "x".
I can buy a replacement for "y".
Where "y"<" x" they simply leave the car in the impound lot.

Or similarly I can buy another clunker and just keep doing what I am currently doing.
Viewing the possibility of their current clunker been impounded as a "cost of doing business".

Leaves the disposal of the previous clunker to the authorities.

The solution will need to be nuanced to reflect the logic that these individuals apply.
It will need to have a " penalty " which encourages the behaviour you wish to develop.

Like the tax defaulters listings, could those caught without insurance be published for all to see??

Like the tax defaulters listings, could those caught without insurance be published for all to see??

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I think that there are issues with publishing stuff on iris ofiigiul.

While I think it has merit in publishing defaulters we need something to change behaviors.

in some sections of society there is an ingrained culture of non cooperation with the man.

Brendan Burgess said:

I would argue that it should be automatically disqualified for 5 years and the car confiscated.

They could appeal that if they have mitigating circumstances.

We have to take it seriously.


Brendan

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You forgot to add a 5-year custodial sentence, Mr. Burgess (regardless of the offending parties age).

If you can't do the time, don't to the crime!

... And yes, I am serious

MrEarl said:

You forgot to add a 5-year custodial sentence, Mr. Burgess (regardless of the offending parties age).

If you can't do the time, don't to the crime!

... And yes, I am serious

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At a cost of €400,000 per offender with 50 nabbed per day that would be a major drain on the exchequer, never mind the bill for a brand new prison just for insurance dodgers.

Brendan Burgess said:

Insured drivers are paying €35 each in higher insurance to pay for the uninsured drivers.

This should either be scrapped and charged to general taxation or else itemised separately and highlighted on every insurance quote so that people know that they are paying this.

Brendan

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The current system is like putting an extra tax on fruit and vegetables because other people eat too much junk food. Bizarre.