Are Planners "Corrupt, Venal or Stupid"?

Split by ajapale from original very specific question. But left in 'Mortgages and Home Buying' for the present

Comments in thread about planners being corrupt, not knowing the rules etc, what a load of bs!!! Planners in the local authority have to work to very strict guideline laid down by the Minister of the Environment, many planners do not necessarily agree with them! Also, Planners recommendations are frequently overturned by the elected Councillors (none of whom know the first thing about Planning!!!) who are getting their pockets lined by developers. NOT ONE professionally qualified planner has ever been found guilty of any sort of corruption, look at the players in the Flood report, not one of them is a real planner.

Sorry, it just makes my blood boil when idiots accuse the planners of being corrupt or stupid when in fact it is down to vote chasing/brown envelope accepting councillors for the bad planning decisions! I agree the newspapers should be uncovering the stories, I think you would be surprised at how much the planners decisions are reversed by uneducated fools like the councillors.

I am not a planner but I have lost count of how many Local Need houses have been built by landowners for their sons and daughters only to find a big FOR SALE sign up the minute the last brick is laid!

Re: Should Planner ask me for Tax Returns?

To follow through with the above post; how come Councillors have such power in this area? and at that rate is there any point having planners? it must be frustrating in the extreme for a professional planner to research a proposal, spend time investigating it and come to a decision on it only to have someone with no experience in the area overturn it. I can't think of any other profession where this would happen. On a personal level I do wonder about some of the PPs granted in my area, and I have plenty of anecdotal eveidence regarding strange decisions but I do think it's amazing that planners can be over ruled so easily.

Re: Should Planner ask me for Tax Returns?

I have no idea why they have so much power, it seems to come down to the fact they are local elected and therefore are there to serve the community. We all know this however is often not the case. Take Wexford County for example, recently the planners recommended against rezoning of some lands as there was already sufficient zoned land, the county manager recommended against it, even Dick Roche TD asked the councillors not to rezone it yet the councillors went ahead with the rezoning, despite it having no benefit to the local area for more houses to be built there, the only benefactors will be the landowners who can now sell the land at a prime rate and the developers who will build on it, yet you can guess who will be blamed for the over developement...The Planners!!!!

I was shocked at how much the councillors interfere with the planning process, it was only because I investigated a few strange permissions that I found out the planners had by and large recommended against decisions that had been overturned/interfered with by councillors

Re: Should Planner ask me for Tax Returns?

Why don't planners speak out/'whistleblow' more? Aren't you in a position to? (I presume you're mostly civil servants and are unlikely to lose your jobs by annoying powerful local politicians...?)

Re: Should Planner ask me for Tax Returns?

I am not a planner so I cannot answer that!

I did have an off the record conversation with one though along those lines and I got the impression that firstly they would have to prove with solid evidence if anything illegal is going on which can be difficult and if they (councillors) are not doing anything strictly illegal which they can justify by what ever reasoning all the planner can do it ensure their view in on record for people to see. You would hope that with the findings of the Flood Report completely exonerating planners the general public would realise just who the baddies are. Can you really expect an individual to stand up against councillors, developers etc and their life not being made utter hell.

Re: Should Planner ask me for Tax Returns?

Councillors set the policy that Councils abide by (the development plan). Planners then consider planning files against this plan. The plans are made following public consultation. Councillors make representations for their constituents on planning applications all the time, this is fair enough, but the planning permission still cannot breach the development plan. Sometimes they vote to overrule the development plan (a material contravention), but this requires that 2/3rds of the council (excluding fractions) of the elected councillors (not just those at the meeting) vote in favour of the contravention.
This is democracy. We may not like all the politicking, but it has to be better than the alternative.

Re: Should Planner ask me for Tax Returns?

JP1234 said:

Comments in this thread about planners being corrupt, not knowing the rules etc, what a load of bs!!!

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All the above is true of certain planners, in addition there is the problem where I live that planners invent rules or re-introduce rules from old dev plans taht are no longer there having been voted out of existence .

Planners in the local authority have to work to very strict guideline laid down by the Minister of the Environment, many planners do not necessarily agree with them!

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I know, they want to herd country people out of the country and into towns .

Also, Planners recommendations are frequently overturned by the elected Councillors (none of whom know the first thing about Planning!!!) who are getting their pockets lined by developers.

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Same as some planners. Many councillors are at their wits end with planners.

NOT ONE professionally qualified planner has ever been found guilty of any sort of corruption, look at the players in the Flood report, not one of them is a real planner -.

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So they did not work as planners in council planning offices ...or did they ?

Sorry, it just makes my blood boil when idiots accuse the planners of being corrupt or stupid when in fact it is down to vote chasing/brown envelope accepting councillors for the bad planning decisions!

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Some are corrupt venal AND stupid (and usually have a 3rd in Geography from NUIG in my unfortunate experiences with that variant of planner ) but some are consistent, professional visionaries who operate with impartiality and courtesy to their clients the public too . I met one of the latter once.

I agree the newspapers should be uncovering the stories, I think you would be surprised at how much the planners decisions are reversed by uneducated fools like the councillors.

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Or a county manager who is sick of them taking up vast amounts of his or her time every week.

I am not a planner but I have lost count of how many Local Need houses have been built by landowners for their sons and daughters only to find a big FOR SALE sign up the minute the last brick is laid!

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which is what enurement clauses for 10 years or a lifetime are for ...non ???

genuine local need cases do not object to enurements .

Re: Should Planner ask me for Tax Returns?

etel, you sound bitter!

first off - re: Flood Tribunal, NO, the PLANNERS were not implicated or found guilty of ANYTHING, it was NON-PLANNERS who were involved in corruption, (COunty Managers, Councillors, Developers!)

The DOE set the guidelines for planning, the planners just have to work within them and the Developement Plan set down by Councillors - how you think one individual can breasily reivent the rules is beyond me

If you are so convinced that there is corruption, report it. "Most" ( because how on earth you seem to know the thoughts of most councillors is a mystery to me) councillors who are at their wits end are the ones who are probably finding they can't get their land rezoned or their family/friends land done.

As for the local need thing, the enurement clause is easy to get round. House gets built, then suddenly the son/daughter is moving away for work so the already rich landowner has a huge house no longer needed which has to be sold on the open market

I am surrounded by several one off "local need" houses - most used as Holiday Homes/second homes by people who live outside my county. In every case the planner either recommended refusal and was overturned by Councillors or approved only on local need. I think the people who obtained the permission illegaly should be imprisoned for fraud, instead we have idiots blaming the planners for the developement, accusing them of corruption/imcompetance when it is clear from looking at the files who is to blame

Happy new year to you

Re: Should Planner ask me for Tax Returns?

JP1234 said:

As for the local need thing, the enurement clause is easy to get round. House gets built, then suddenly the son/daughter is moving away for work so the already rich landowner has a huge house no longer needed which has to be sold on the open market

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Most councils are pretty immoveable on these.

I think the people who obtained the permission illegaly should be imprisoned for fraud,

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I agree wholeheartedly. They lied to get planning and signed the lies so the evidence is there. Nor do expensive planners have to investigate, you could get cheap investigators on the case .

instead we have idiots blaming the planners for the developement, accusing them of corruption/imcompetance when it is clear from looking at the files who is to blame

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emm umm the planners who enforce decisions are responsible, amongst others. Planners also enforce and therefore are responsible for checking that the conditions were followed .

If the houses were built only because someone lied they should be demolished, simple as that.

JP1234,
I am a planner and just want to Thank you sincerely for defending Planners. Its incredible the amount of grief we get as a profession.(just look at the front page of the Clare Champion every week. a witch hunt on planners there!)
To be honest I dont blame some people for being peeved off with Planners as a refusal of a planning permission has a major impact on a persons life and place of living. However as you have mentioned we are very much bound by Governmental plans regulations and and so on. And as you rightly mentioned councillors can overrule a planners decision and indeed decisions can be changed at a number of levels as usually the report and decision passes through a number of hands. and indeed yes changes do occur to a decision. My one gripe is the power a County manager has as he is the one who ultimately signs off on a decision. And as we have seen in the Flood/Mahon Tribunal, this has been abused bog time and still continues.
Regardless the Planning process has become a more tansparent system which is undoubtedly a good thing. An Bord Pleanala exists as a (hopefully) unbiased appeals body. I must admit though that there has been such a massive extent of development in the last 10 years and county councils have not employed half enough planners to deal with the work load. thus the many complaints of people not being able to contact their planner. we are up to our eyes at work and simply trying to do our best at making a good planning decision. it would be of massive benefit if this was addressed.
anyway thanks again JP for speaking up for planners but somehow think it may lost on deaf ears. keep up the good work though.
Brendan

cormac said:

JP1234,
I am a planner and just want to Thank you sincerely for defending Planners. Its incredible the amount of grief we get as a profession.(just look at the front page of the Clare Champion every week. a witch hunt on planners there!)

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What happened last week in Clare was that every Architects firm in said County asked for consistency from the planners and felt they would get ignored ...again... unless they published an open letter in the paper to get their view heard.

An appeal for consistency and professionalism is hardly a witch hunt is it ??

I`m not a planner but have a lot of sympathy for them. Were the Clare requests from genuine architects i.e. profesionally qualified or people calling themselves such?
A lot of problems are caused by the terrible standard of planning applications prepared by non-pros. Just check the spelling on some of the drawings -it wouldn`t give you great faith in the quality. Important matters like sight distances are drawn in creatively and when that is found to be wrong it places the application in strong doubt.

"Just check the spelling on some of the drawings" >> "sight distances"

Pot, kettle and black are the words which spring to mind!


There is obviously something fundamentally wrong with a system which attracts so much negative press.

There seems to be so much inconsistency in the planning process that it's only natural that so many people feel so hard-done by. In my area alone which is an agricultural zoned one where one-off housing is only permitted for people involved in agriculture or on a local needs basis alone and where the restrictions are supposed to be very strict, I know of one non-local developer who owns 2 houses and has still managed to obtain planning permission for 2 other huge monstronsities under his own name. On the other hand, I know of several other local people who have lived in my area all their lives and are being put through all the hoops in order to obtain their permission. It's because of numerous examples like these that people have indeed lost faith in this system and where the allegations of corruption evolve from and one has to wonder sometimes.

Some might suggest that there should be more complaints made against the system but in fact, I believe people are afraid to complain or object against questionable decisions because they're afraid of a 'black mark' being made against them which will affect them negatively when they apply for their own permissions and by the time they get their own permission they're too tired and worn out by the process to object to any other so-called 'corrupt' decision.

Planners are almost looked upon in archaic dickensian fashion. They are solely responsible for the horrific spread of the dormer bungalow throughout the isle. They harp on about the effects of one-off housing on the environment, yet I believe it's people who submit plans of slightly different bio-friendly houses which are given more grief than anyone!

These are just a few things i've picked up from several people in my locality when they subject about planning has ever been raised in conversation.

bb12 said:

There is obviously something fundamentally wrong with a system which attracts so much negative press.

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Yes but because the system is cocked it doesn't automatically make the people working within it bad does it?

bb12 said:

In my area alone which is an agricultural zoned one where one-off housing is only permitted for people involved in agriculture or on a local needs basis alone and where the restrictions are supposed to be very strict, I know of one non-local developer who owns 2 houses and has still managed to obtain planning permission for 2 other huge monstronsities under his own name.

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Out of curiousity - have you checked what the planner recommended? This is where I started from, same scenario and when the file was checked in most cases the planner recommended refusal only to have the decision overturned by councillors!

bb12 said:

They are solely responsible for the horrific spread of the dormer bungalow throughout the isle.

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So the people buying/building them have no responsibility then? The Councillors who routinely rezone land and overturn decisions too?

mmm well I am just about to apply for planning permission.........& very nervous.
I suppose that you can't blame all planners for the system but I don't think that they are all blameless either.............

My main problem at the moment is that I have been told that because I already own a house that I will not get pp as I do not have a 'need' for housing.........this seems ridiculous to me - my current house is a 2 bedroom townhouse which I would consider to be a starter home - how would you have kids etc in this house?. I have been told that I need to sell this house - in which case I would have to rent for the 2 years it takes before house is built.
Not sure what to do now?

So the people buying/building them have no responsibility then? The Councillors who routinely rezone land and overturn decisions too?

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JP1234, you arguments would indicate that planners are not responsible for anything at all! If so, why are they even necessary then?
My point about the dormer bungalows was a question of design. The country is riddled with monotonous dormer bungalow types because these appear to be the only designs which planners will give permission for.

There's a whole other question behind this also. Land ownership and what it entitles the owner to. On one hand, you have the environmentatlists wanting to preserve everything, but on the other hand, one has to consider what are and what should be the actual rights of owning property in this country. For example in the States, they have very strong ownership laws and basically once you own your property, it's yours to do whatever you like with it. Stems from the Wild West days I guess. However, here, the planners can dictate right down to where you decide to put your kitchen island in your kitchen!

I think they have a little too much power and some of it should be reined back a little. Which is what Dick Roche began trying to do last year with the new regulations asking them to ease off on some of the intricate design requests but more needs to be done imho.

I think the "local people cannot get permission to build on their own land" argument is vastly overstated. I have never come across a farmer's child (who didn't already have a house) and who:

a) applied for permission to build on the family farm and
b) was refused permission. (granted, planners have sometimes said "not where you have it - move it to another location" or "not this house type", but that is what they are there for)

I know this is only anecdotal, but I deal with perhaps a dozen or more site transfers and self build mortgages each year, and I have been doing so for a good few years. My mother in law used to insist to me that "such and such a person" had been told by the awful planners that they couldn't build on their own land. In response to my doubt, she got the mother of this guy and said "wasn't your xxxxxx told he couldn't build on your land?". "Well," came the response, "they wouldn't let him build what he wanted to build...."

I am sorry if this sounds like I am making little of the people who undoubtedly find the planning process stressful; but I just don't believe that rural people are being denied the chance to build houses in their own communities. Evidence to the contrary abounds.

On the contrary I know of several farmers children who have had a terrible time getting permission. One in particular has been trying to get permission for 5 years now to no avail and was told by a planner it would be another 10 before this person would get it as it would lead to ribbon development! In the meantime, they've given permission to neighbours either side to build.

I know of a local horse trainer who has to live in his parents house with a wife, 2 kids and several brothers and who has been refused permission several times now, even though this trainer has been based in this location for 15 years and actually employs several local people in the running of his yard. Incidentally, the developer who I mentioned above, swooped in, bought a few acres right next door and got planning permission straight away for a huge house! So much for the so-called 'must be a native of the area for at least 10 years" clause in the local development plan.

On the other hand , there's another example of a local pub-owner who already has a house. This person bought several acres of land locally 5 years ago but rented it out immediately as they do not actually farm.
However planning permission was granted to build a house on it last year, depsite the fact they already have a house and the development plan clearly states that unless they are involved in agriculture or have local needs without having any other house, they should not get permission. Interestingly, when I asked to look at this file in the local planning office, it had mysteriously dissappeared.

Another example is of a local school principal and councillor who owns a house in a nearby town 5 miles away but was granted permission to build near the school where he teaches despite the fact that there was no great local needs as he only lived 5 miles away. There was an objection to the application which was totally ignored.
These are just some of the inconsistencies which are evident from my local planning office. I think that the perception that all farmers children get permission is totally wrong and has been the opposite to many of the posters above.