Architect's quote for an attic conversion

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Happy_Harry

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Planning to convert attic of bungalow to add master BR, large ensuite, dressing room and nursery/office + landing gallery. This will include the addition of 2 dormer windows . Attic was designed and built to be converted.

I asked an architect to draw up the plans and do the planning submission for me (incl a retention permission for a garage). He quoted 1500 + VAT, does that sound reasonable ?
 
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Re: Architect's quote for an atic conversion

Sounds about right. The garage retention is adding a fair bit to the price.
 
Re: Architect's quote for an atic conversion

Hi. It would be wise to stipulate in writing that whatever price you agree is based on acceptance of his planning application and some portion of fee should be witheld until then.
 
Re: Architect's quote for an atic conversion

Right - slightly blue in the face writing about this, but the last point has prompted a response.

Your Architect is not responsible for GETTING planning permission, they are responsible for submitting a valid application - that's all. It makes no sense what so ever for the architect to take the risk of a 3rd party - in this case, the planners. Any architect willing to buy into an agreement to do this with a client more than likely isn't an architect, or certainly has had no contract law / risk management education.

Architect's typically charge in 4 stages (in brief - Design, Planning, Tender, Construction). They also typically charge a % of contract sum (the build cost). The smaller the job - the higher the %. The most expensive firms might typically charge in the region of 18 - 20% for an extension type job, with the average firm probably charging around 8-10% say.

In general my opinion would be 1500euro was a steal to get all that work done - a survey of a traditional house say would probably take two people 2hrs to do on-site (4hrs total) and at least 10hrs to draw it up fully in CAD (more likely to be something like 12 - 16hrs for one person) so to get a survey of the house and plans / sections / elevations / site plan / contiguous elevations we're talking a minimum of 15hrs and in my experience probably more like 20. A typical hourly rate for a junior architect would be around 50euro - so we can see that the survey alone should cost in teh region of 750 euro.

So to get all the design work & drawing done not to mention the planning applications, planning report, retention report, client meetings, design changes, printing etc done for a further 750 sounds amazing to me.

On top of that you will have associated planning & retention fees as well as newspaper notice fees.

And finally - I think it's normal enough to seek payment before lodging...carrot and the stick type situation.
 
Re: Architect's quote for an atic conversion

Sorry about the "blue-in-face" bit, but our Architect ( euro 1250 + app fees + ad) for 80sq/m extension agreed to that stipulation should the application be refused on the basis of planning guidelines or the planners subjectivity.

It was refused on a subjectivity ("we feel...............bla, bla, bla") basis and he is as agreed, re-submitting drawings with alterations.

In previous posts you stated that "Planners must refuse on rule of law". I have a refusal letter from a "Graduate Planner" which contradicts this and the text of which I would be willing to post once/if we receive planning.

I will be glad to post our architect's details as recommendation once he has gone fully self-employed.
 
Re: Architect's quote for an atic conversion

Unusual for an architect to practice like this...if you would like verification I might sugguest either conducting a brief survey of a few RIAI practices, or perhaps contacting the RIAI directly.

As for the costs - it sounds like you got the work done on (cheap) nixer rates - again the RIAI produce a Fee Survey guide which you can reference.

However, as with all posts on this forum, to a large extent it's difficult to comment directly without seeing exactly what is being talked about. However for the record, an 80sq.m. extension using, say, the rule of thumb of approx 2000euro per sq.m. should cost in the region of 160k to complete. 8% fees would be 12,800, over 4 stages would be approx 3200 ex. VAT per stage. Planning would be stage 2 so that should be around the 6400 ex. VAT mark.

As I've discussed before on AAM - I suggest checking that your architect is properly qualified, is a member of the RIAI or RIBA and has the relevant professional indemnity insurace in place - (especially the insurance).

As for the planners objections part - planners can indeed only refuse permission on point of planning law. In my experience personal opinion is rarely stated, however - should you feel this was the case then there would be strong grounds for appeal.
 
Re: Architect's quote for an atic conversion


For the record, I expect, using direct labour, to come in at €40k.

As for the planners objections part - planners can indeed only refuse permission on point of planning law. In my experience personal opinion is rarely stated, however - should you feel this was the case then there would be strong grounds for appeal.
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We aren't appealing as we have applied for the 6 week.

Unusual for an architect to practice like this...if you would like verification I might sugguest either conducting a brief survey of a few RIAI practices, or perhaps contacting the RIAI directly.
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Wht would I survey RIAI practices? To confirm that I'm getting a fair deal?

MG01, are you an architect?
 
Re: Architect's quote for an atic conversion

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Some links you may find interesting.

Not questioning the contract sum and architect's fees you claim to have gotten, but from the above you might agree that whatever arrangement you have with your architect is not the industry norm.

...by the way, incase you're interested there is a competition authority report on the practice of architecture available in case you think that all the above are not fair deals.

...and there are plenty of details on the provisions in the new Building Control Bill for the registration of the title of Architect.
 
OK, more than half a year later. The above mentioned architect did not deliver, as he was seemingly too busy. There was also the issue that we didn’t have any plans of the house, and drawing those again would have cost another 1300 euros.

We found the plans at a local architect, who had signed off on completion of the house. They were actually not drawn up by the architect but by the builder himself (built it for his daughter) and were actually not 100% accurate.

We decided to see what this architect would charge us for doing up the plans and managing the planning application process, to get planning for the attic conversion with dormer windows and retention of the garage.

We had one consultation with him in which we outlined our wishes and in which I asked him what he would charge us. He said he wanted to see the house first. He came to the house, had a look around for 10 minutes and said his junior (apprentice) would come and take some measurements. Once again I asked him what it would cost and he said he would do up a quote. Later that day the apprentice came by and spent 2 hours taking measurements of the house and garage. A week later he came back and did it all over again.

It is 3 weeks later now and we received 3 drawings in the mail ( 2 preliminary design drawings and a copy of the survey drawing)

It also included a quote :
Stage 1:
These 3 drawings 1310 Euros
Measured survey at the property 590 euro
Consultation 65 Euro

Stage 2
Detailed plans for planning application incl copies CD in AutoCAD format 1620 euro
Specified costs to cover 6 copies of all documents, management fee etc 700 Euro

All prices exclude VAT

I have some questions now:

Can we just walk away without paying him anything? We never agreed on a price, and I asked him on every occasion. He could have just told me what it would cost me without doing the actual work.
590 Euro for 2 hrs apprentice work, measuring the house, sounds a little much to me.

Do we really need any further detailed plans for the planning permission, the plans he sent us looked fairly detailed already… and had a lot more detail on them then the plans that were submitted to secure planning for the house.

He is member of the RIAI, so you’d expect it to be good. However he designed one bedroom without any windows. Isn’t this in breach of fire regulations, apart from being stupid? Obviously I feel no need to pay for that particular drawing.

The other design is actually quite nice and I wouldn’t mind using that for the conversion, but I am just not sure whether we are being quoted a fair price and whether everything he is quoting is needed. Also the fact that he seems to try and pull a fast one by doing the work without a quotation has irritated me immensely.
 
I suspect that you can - as there was no agreement regarding the consideration (i.e. the fee) for the design and hence no contract (IMO).

He might be entitled to quantum meruit for the survey though. (Is there a solicitor who can answer the question around?)


Happy_Harry said:
Do we really need any further detailed plans for the planning permission, the plans he sent us looked fairly detailed already… and had a lot more detail on them then the plans that were submitted to secure planning for the house.
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Hard to tell - I suspect that the drawings you received are not sufficient - though the insufficiencies are probably quite small - missing north point, missing dimensions, perhaps finishes materials are not called up, no section through the building, no indication of foul and surface water drainage. Also there are site location maps, site layout plans etc. required for the submission.

Happy_Harry said:
He is member of the RIAI, so you’d expect it to be good. However he designed one bedroom without any windows. Isn’t this in breach of fire regulations, apart from being stupid? Obviously I feel no need to pay for that particular drawing.
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Generally for a 2 storey house, one is expected to escape via the windows. (There are possibilities of escaping through the house, by putting in fire doors and fire construction etc) All habitable rooms have to have a means of escape.
http://www.environ.ie/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad,1640,en.pdf

A room without a window also has the problem that it has no ventilation.

That said, it may be that the initial sketches are "discussion documents", are are merely directions that the design can go in - they need not be perfect or "buildable" but rather are expected to put ideas down on paper. (Though not having a window in a bedroom is rather poor).


The price so far is slightly high - but not ridiculously so. The service you are getting is below standard though.

I suspect the reason he didn't quote you a figure at the start is because he was uncertain of the amount of work required. Some clients can demand 5 or 6 redesigns, some merely want a few minor alterations, some just want planning for a simple "boring" extension, some want something architectural. Because of this, there is a strong tendency to avoid quoting at any stage and "play it by ear" when it comes to charging. For this reason, it is well worth arguing with the architect - you'll probably be able to shave off an amount off what you've been quoted.
 
Happy Harry,
you seem to mis-trust this guy. thats the worst footing to start off a client - professional basis..... Id cut my losses with him and keep searching till you find someone you do trust.
 
I don't mis-trust him as an architect, and I hope the room with no windows is just a glitch. Actually, as an architect I trust him more than the previous one. I just don't like his way of doing business.

For now I'll take Superman's advice and try to get the price down. The one thing I would like to know though is exactly what plans and drawings are required with the application. I have gone through a lot of information online, but can't find it..I think the information I am looking for is in article 23 of the Planning Regulations, but I can't find them online, the only thing I find is amendments to this article.
Also, most information relates to planning for a new house or extension, neither of which I am doing. I just want to put in two dormer windows and put rooms in the attic.
 
for an attic conversion application he needs to do;

1. measure the dwelling and draw it up.
2. come up with some drafts for you
3. alter the drafts to suit your changes
4. finish drawings to planning standard... generate elevations, draw section, finish plans.... show overall dimensions, call up finishes, areas and ancillary stuff.
5. purchase OS maps, and augment as needed for planning
6. prepare site layout plan
7. prepare documents.. application form, site notice, schedule,
8. publish notice in newspaper
9. submit application
 
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