Architect fees of 10-14% on budget of €200k

[CN624]

We have received an initial quote for a build of 10-14% from an architect.
I'm not questioning the 10-14% as he seems to have won a number of awards for his work and if he can get it thats his business.
Is it worth paying so much for an admittedly excellent architect on such a budget? From his website the previous work was probably closer to the half million or above. I'm worried that (a) we'll be either treated as an afterthought if he has bigger projects to work on. Or (b) that with an overall budget of €200k will the design end up being as generic as anything a cheaper architect could create.

 

[onq]

You say the guy is excellent, so agree the fee and trust him to perform.
For the record, you come across as not understanding what he does or what good design is about.
You sound like a couple who chose him because of his list of awards rather than any liking you actually have for his work.

If he's a really good architect, his work will be about distilling what you want it to be, imbuing it with what he brings to the table, taking account of what the building itself "wants" to be.
The degree of excellence will depend on you knowing what you like in a building and being sure of what you both want yourselves, and that includes starting or raising a family, if you haven't already done so.
Its very easy to design "perfect" buildings that can look very dog-eared when the mess of living starts piling up, but a well-designed building is one that caters for people living their lives and their families lives in it

ONQ.

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All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.

 

[tufty1]

ONQ,

I am normally an avid admirer of your comments and the time and effort you put into assisting people on the site but do you really think comments like 'For the record, you come across as not understanding what he does or what good design is about' are helpful? No need to make such presumptions of CN624 in the manner you have.

CN624, I would suggest that an architect commenting on what is a reasonable fee for an architect is not going to be advise you should consider particularly when he is recommending you accept a fee of 10-14%!

Most domestic architects I have spoken to recently, who are very highly respected, will snap your hand off for a fee of 8% for a full service of a project of your size.

Either go back to your architect and agree a more realistic figure or find another one.

 

[onq]

tufty1,

You need to read my post again, because I did not recommend acceptace of a particular fee.
The first reason is that this is not the function of AAM - we are too remote.

There was second a reason for this.
The OP, in the SECOND LINE OF THE THREAD STARTER said:

"I'm not questioning the 10-14%"

This was the reason I didn't address the percentage per se.
The OP for some reason then questioned the level of service and the result.
The way to check this is to talk to former clients and learn what their experience was.

I pointed out that they appeared to be ignorant of the process by which excellent design is achieved.

I meant it literally, not as an insult.
Let me elaborate on this in layman's terms.

Quality in = quality out.
More time spent in preparation and design = a better quality product.

This implies the following; -

If you intend to work with an award-winning architect, do it because you like his work - not the awards he has garnered.
You will have to put a lot of time into the design process yourselves in order for him to develop a design that also works well.
You get what you pay for - excellence will generaly cost more in personal time and fees than you may incur on a run-of-the-mill project.

On a recent building with similar cost (which didn't win an award but which my clients were delighted with) my fees were fixed at under 10%.
But when there is a huge overhead in terms of time spent getting the design right, it is natural that the person involved will require to be paid more.

It isn't outrageous to expect to be paid for this extra time, because its the designers time which they could otherwise have spent doing other profitable work.
But you have to keep in mind that if you are going to fix a flat fee, expect a cut off point for the design work, otherwise you look like you're expecting an open account.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.

 

[Shawady]

CN624,
Have you looked for quotes from other architects?
We got several before we decided on one last year. The guy we used charged a flat fee based on the amount of work involved.
Something to consider before you make a final decision.

 

[RIAD_BSC]

Hi CN624. I, too, recently appointed an architect for a fixed fee (and as a % of my build cost, it was well, well below 10-14%).

Architects don't like it, but fixed fees is the way the market has gone these days. IMHO, if you appoint an architect for up to 14% of the build cost on a 200k project, you're out of your mind.... Particularly if this is not his normal type of project.

Go for a more modestly-priced architect to suit your modestly-priced project. Make sure the architect is also RIAI registered, as this affords you a little more protection as a consumer. If the architect is not RIAI, there is no real reason for you to hire him/her, when there are so many RIAI architects knocking about looking for new projects.

And don't be swayed by vested interests from within the profession who tell you to pay more than you need to.... for "quality". You should expect quality from any architect.

 

[onq]

CN624,

If you pay Mini One prices expect a Mini One not a BMW 5-Series.
Both are fine cars, built to high standards of quality assurance, but only an unwise or naive person would pay for one and expect to get the other.

Match your expectations of design input to your architect's expectations of work output and agree a fixed fee, with a schedule or hourly rates and expenses to allow for additional work as required.
No architect will walk away from doing a deal on profitable work, but remember, even an economically-run sole tradership will not see more than say 40% of the money you pay.
The majority of the fees will go to pay the cost of doing business, leaving them circa 40% to live on.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.

 

[Tee]

I understand your dilemma... I've met with some fabulous architects where I've loved the work they have done, but where I've felt our modest budget was in no way the budget they were used to.

An architect who can produce the best result with a modest budget won't necessarily be the same one who can produce amazing results with the budgets I wish I had.

I'd recommend you ask to see examples of projects they have completed on smaller budgets, ask them where the money was saved, what was sacrificed (as something always must be I guess), where it was hidden (i.e. any clever ways to cut costs not apparent or detremental to the design).

At the end of the day if an architect has only ever put in fabby 50k plus kitchens and I've 5k then what will the result be?

It's a difficult one, I wish I knew the answer as it's a dilemma I have too.

 

[onq]

<nods>

Compromise is the key.
Sometimes with kitchens you can achieve a finish or a form but not both.
Sometimes a simple form placed just so and functionally useful with make a good kitchen.

Simpler forms may allow for more luxurious materials finishes.
Complex forms and mouldings might suggest more affordable paint finishes.
Extravagantly expensive white marble worktops suggest you may need to think again.

If youre looking at tiling (for example) don't be afraid to look further afield.
I know one neighbour who hired a truck and went to Poland and returned with tiles for €10K for his entire ground floor.
A close relative of his did something similar using European sourced materials but it ended up costing her the guts of €60K.
Even allowing for the hire of the truck and his own time, my neighbour came out ahead on the deal, and the tiles look good.

Also don't be put off importing materials from further afield, say China.
It takes a degree of courage to do so and you may get some odd results, but there are deals to be done out there.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.

 

[Tee]

Onq - wondering if you can answer a question for me...

A particular bugbear of mine is a less than perfect plastering finish in rooms, poor paint finish and poor carpentry around say skirting boards (in corners) or door frames. Where corners don't line up perfectly or where woodwork obviously needed to be better sanded before being painting.

I'd weep if I had to look at that each day.

When push comes to shove is it the money we spend that dictates this? I sort of feel that if I'm employing a builder or a plaster then it should be a given they will do these things well. But I see all around me and from my own experience that this isn't the case.

I'm worried I'll employ an architect but that they won't necessarily prevent the poor finish? How will they if surely they won't be visiting that often?

Basically I'm asking HOW DO YOU GET A PERFECT FINISH ON A SMALL BUDGET? Or am I kidding myself it's possible?

 

[Docarch]

I'm worried I'll employ an architect but that they won't necessarily prevent the poor finish? How will they if surely they won't be visiting that often?

Onq has written an awful lot today so he may be on down time!

Quite simple to answer your question Tee. The architect certifies payments to the builder. The architect does not need to be there to supervise the work but if the work, on inspection, is not up to scratch, the builder does not get paid until the work is put right - simple as.

This is one of the primary reasons to engage the services of an architect.

 

[onq]

Onq - wondering if you can answer a question for me...

A particular bugbear of mine is a less than perfect plastering finish in rooms, poor paint finish and poor carpentry around say skirting boards (in corners) or door frames. Where corners don't line up perfectly or where woodwork obviously needed to be better sanded before being painting.

I'd weep if I had to look at that each day.

When push comes to shove is it the money we spend that dictates this? I sort of feel that if I'm employing a builder or a plaster then it should be a given they will do these things well. But I see all around me and from my own experience that this isn't the case.

I'm worried I'll employ an architect but that they won't necessarily prevent the poor finish? How will they if surely they won't be visiting that often?

Basically I'm asking HOW DO YOU GET A PERFECT FINISH ON A SMALL BUDGET? Or am I kidding myself it's possible?

Thanks to Docarch for covering, but I'm slowly getting back in the swing of things after a short holiday and I find answering questions on AAM is hugely therapeutic.

However, this may need a thread of its own.
This is a thread about architects fees not standards achievable on limited budgets.
Assuming the mods allow this deviation I'll echo what Docarch has said but with this important caveat.

While its true "you get what you pay for" its also true that "you get what you contracted to buy".
If the tendering process has been conducted professionally, i.e. by a competent architect, he will have seen the work achieved by the prospective tenderers and assessed it is competent or not.
If the appointment and tender negotiation process has been conducted professionally, your architect will tie down the price to samples or examples of work by the successful tenderer.

Then as Docarch says, the architect will hold the builder to a standard of finish, but its the agreed standard, not some arbitrary standard of excellence which the builder might otherwise claim was not achievable for that price.

BTW, all following trades complain about the previous workmanship and self-builders with no clue about this will be aghast at what painters sometimes find.
Get out your blocks and sandpaper and prepare your surfaces for their first paint - that's what all finishing foremen have to ensure occurs on any house.
Buy the Pollyfilla and use the damp cloth, prime and paint away - two proper coats are better than the one-coat wonderments on the shelves today.
Don't overload your brush, up and down and across and finish on an upstroke - use a 1" (25mm) brush and trim the edge rather than masking tape.

Yes, I do my own painting around the house.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.

 

[RKQ]

Make sure the architect is also RIAI registered, as this affords you a little more protection as a consumer.

Can you validate this claim?
I am unaware of any better protection to the consumer offered by RIAI.

In fact a good reputation and full PI insurance is all the comsumer protection a consumer needs. IMO a good reputation is earned and must be protected by good professional performance.