Apparently we don't own our car. Advice greatly appreciated.

My husband and I bought a car outright (traded in old car and paid balance with a bank draft) from an independent dealership (not a member of SIMI) 3 years ago. Last week, we got a letter from Friends First stating that the car is subject to a finance agreement with them, and is legally their asset.
When we rang Friends First, they said there is an outstanding hire purchase agreement on the car, which has recently been defaulted on. They said that if we bought the car in a private sale, they could seize the car from us, but that if we bought it from a garage, they would go after the garage. We told them we got it from a garage, and sent them copies of our invoice, as well as a copy of the original ad from the garage website.
FF then rang us back to say the invoice we have is a fake. It turns out that the salesman we dealt with in the garage owned the car and had the finance with FF. He sold us his own car and faked the invoice from the garage. However, the garage must have known as the car was advertised on their website, we viewed it twice in their forecourt, spoke to other sales staff about it, and made out the bank draft to the garage.
FF have a meeting with this guy later this week, and say they are hopeful of working out an agreement with him re the outstanding amount (€12,000, which is more than the car is now worth). But we have some major legal concerns:

1. If FF agrees a settlement with the guy and he pays them, does legal ownership of the car then go to him?? How do we make sure that ultimately we are recognised as the legal owners of the car?
2. If their agreement involves paying the money in installments, what are the implications for us in the meantime? We assume we can't sell the car until this is sorted. Are there any insurance issues, as we are now holding insurance on an asset that we don't own? If the car is stolen or crashed, can we claim?
3. If they don't reach an agreement, or if he defaults again, and FF come after the car, where do we stand? From our point of view it was a garage sale, so the garage should be liable, but because of his fraud, is it now seen legally as a private sale, and can FF seize the car? Can we fight this?

We would really appreciate some legal insight on these issues. We are very stressed as my husband lost his job recently, and I am 6 months pregnant. We can't lose our car. Thanks in advance.

as far as you are concerned you made an honest transaction and paid monies with B.draft which will strenghten your case. actually if i was the seller of the vechicle i would be very very worried as the blame and owness totally falls back on him

id like to hear other opinions but you did everything by the book apart from looking at the history by doing a full HPI check!

Pretty sure they can take back the car if they want. Is it similar to paying for stolen goods, even when paying in good faith they are not yours and can be taken back?

Your case is with the seller I think, you should start chasing him?

Sorry folks

You have a responsibility to check if there is any money outstanding.

They were not entitled to sell you the car as it belongs to Friends First, not to them.

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=113734&highlight=motorcheck

Brendan

what does the garage say about all this?

Honestly are they any safegaurds for consumers, surely garages should bear the responsibility of checking the authenticy of their cars before selling them on to unsuspecting members of the public.

Don't automatically accept FF's position that this was, in effect, a private sale and had nothing to do with the garage. Stick to your original position that as far as you are concerned you bought the car from the garage - after all, you made the cheque payable to the garage, not yer man. If FF say it was faked etc, then let them prove it. Even if the likelihood is that they are right, don't just take their word on it. Maintain your original position and don't just automatically roll over for FF.

RIAD_BSC said:

Don't automatically accept FF's position that this was, in effect, a private sale and had nothing to do with the garage. Stick to your original position that as far as you are concerned you bought the car from the garage - after all, you made the cheque payable to the garage, not yer man. If FF say it was faked etc, then let them prove it. Even if the likelihood is that they are right, don't just take their word on it. Maintain your original position and don't just automatically roll over for FF.

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+1.

Do you have any copies of the car being advertised on the garages website?

What proof is there that the invoice is a fake?

Can you get the bank to confirm you made the bank draft out to the garage?

I think that you have a strong case here that your business arrangement was with the garage and not an individual, if I were you I would maintain that position.

Google Cached pages may provide a history of the garage website.

after 3 years? not likely

bought a car ...3 years ago. Last week, we got a letter from Friends First stating that the car is ... legally their asset.... they said there is an outstanding hire purchase agreement on the car, which has recently [my emphasis] been defaulted on.

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So the previous owner continued the payments for the last 3 years?

Apparently he did continue payments for 3 years, and only defaulted recently.
After my original post, I managed to speak informally to a solicitor. He thought we had a very strong case to resist any seizure of the car.
But then Friends First rang us today with an update, which thankfully means we're ok. The original owner didn't turn up to his meeting with FF last week. They have decided that we bought the car in good faith from the garage, so they are waiving their rights to the car (we will get this in writing from them!). Presumably they feel we would have a good case if they tried to seize it. They are going to pursue him for the money in the courts instead, as the more straightforward option for them.
We are very lucky to get out of this so easily. We were obviously naive in not doing a HPI check when we bought the car, but it just didn't occur to us when buying from a garage. Lesson learnt!

Monkey 14- By highlighting the problem here, you give others the opportunity to be more aware of the pitfalls and to get the car checked out on motorcheck.ie before purchasing.

Well done on a happy outcome it was very stressful for you. Good luck with the pregnancy post back in 3 months and update us with the happy news!

It was very stressful alright, and we're so relieved. At least we can get baby home from the hospital now!
Hopefully some others can learn from this, as well as us.

Delighted for you. Well done and good luck with the baby.

good to hear you had a good outcome.
for peace of mind its well worth €7 for a finance check on www.mywheels.ie when buying second hand.

Where on that report does HPI info appear ,I have looked on sample report and can't see any categorey ?

RIAD_BSC said:

Don't automatically accept FF's position that this was, in effect, a private sale and had nothing to do with the garage. Stick to your original position that as far as you are concerned you bought the car from the garage - after all, you made the cheque payable to the garage, not yer man. If FF say it was faked etc, then let them prove it. Even if the likelihood is that they are right, don't just take their word on it. Maintain your original position and don't just automatically roll over for FF.

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I agree, You bought the car from a motor trader not a private person. The car was advertised in a trade advert not a private advert and you viewed, inspected and bought the car from the dealership that had the car advertised. How can they explain the fact that you paid them and not this private salesman!!.. They have under the consumer act, an obligation to disclose all information relating to the vehicle to you before you buy and have obviously failed to do so.

FF can have the vehicle taken from you if they wish but I think they would prefer get their money. It doesnt matter if the salesman owned the car or not that doesnt make it a private sale. He used the motor dealer to sell his vehicle so therefore its a trade sale.

How or why do FF come to the conclusion that the invoice is fake??
If so thats not your problem, I think its a case that FF would go after the garage and in turn the garage would possibly then go after the salesman possibly ex-salesman by now !..

You are in danger of loosing your car however, but I think you have a good case against the dealer.

Digger said:

Where on that report does HPI info appear ,I have looked on sample report and can't see any categorey ?

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you get the initial report on write off, uk import etc straight away, but the finance check is done during business hours so that comes in a separate email the following day.

heres one i got for an 06 318i last week :

This vehicle is not subject to a finance agreement in the Republic of Ireland based on a search of the official finance records held by the Irish Credit Bureau.

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