Anger with the Property market and rent increase !!

Re: Devils in the Detail

Today's Irish Times has a couple of articles about the bill details of which were announced by the Minister yesterday. Market rate is defined as the sum required for "vacant possession having regard to the other tenancy terms and the letting values of the dwellings of similar size, type and character and located in a similar area". No mention of indices - the other article has the Opposition and tenants representatives complaining about this aspect of the legislation.

How could you have market rent being anything other than, curiously enough, market rent? If it were linked to initial rent plus an index, there'd be loads of different 'market rents'. How could this work? To give tenants real security of tenure, landlords have to be able to charge market rent - otherwise they'd want the tenants out so they could start again (at real market rent) with new tenants.

Landlords

Rainyday - I don't think I'm being a bit 'rich' at all in my attitiude. I have only recently moved into the house and was told the story by the people I share with (some of whom have been there for years).While my rent might be slightly lower than the rates for the area, it's still not bloody cheap. I'm not conspiring with anyone to evade tax.

As for reporting my landlord to the Revenue - I am of the understanding that no annonymous 'tips' can be made to them. I'd have to give my name and details. Now I'm just after completing my 5th move in 18 months and am finally in an area that I like and thats handy for work/socialising etc. I don't think the governement have the stomach for catching these people out - like I said a lot of landlords I have known operate in what appear to be a dodgy manner. So why report 1 when there's hundreds possibly at the same craic

Thanks for the warning Tommy. However, I think it would be a very ambitious landlord that would go to law over non payment of rent which in fact had been paid when he's not above board himself. A lot of people have lived at 1 stage or another in this house. The landlord would be faced by many witnesses who'd explain how the situation was when they were there.
And as the landlord built this house himself, there are no purchase/sale contracts involved (maybe on the land he used to build them perhaps)

I too believe that a crack down might be imminent on landlords, Tommy. It just annoys me to see it taking so long. I know the revenue's hands are full at the moment but the country is short cash at present and guess who'll be putting up for this come the budget - PAYE workers.

Re: Landlords

I have only recently moved into the house and was told the story by the people I share with (some of whom have been there for years).

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So a little bit of tax evasion is OK, or tax evasion for a short period is OK because other guys have been doing it for years? Some very suspect moral logic there...

am finally in an area that I like and thats handy for work/socialising etc.

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So tax evasion is OK if it facilites your commuting or socialising? Some more very suspect moral logic there...

While my rent might be slightly lower than the rates for the area, it's still not bloody cheap.

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I didn't say it was cheap, but the fact remains that the reduction (large or small) which you enjoy is the fruits of tax evasion.

I'd have to give my name and details.

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Probably, but why would this be a problem for you? Any information you give to Revenue will be treated in strictest confidence & your landlord will never know who shopped him.

I don't think the governement have the stomach for catching these people out

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You could well be right here, but they also don't have the evidence for catching these people out, until people like you are prepared to stand up & be counted.

So why report 1 when there's hundreds possibly at the same craic

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How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time. How do you catch hundreds of tax-evading landlords? One at a time.

My own opinion is that you lose your right to complain about tax evading landlords as long as you are happy to play their game. You're either part of the solution or part of the problem - IMHO, you are choosing to be part of the problem.

Regards - RainyDay

Re: Devils in the Detail

Mags,

I would have imagined that the rental component of the CPI measures market rents. Surely there needs to be some objective measure of rental trends in the market place against which to compare a particular rent increase. Without such a measure how can someone claim their rent has increased by more than market rates?

Somehting else just occured to me. Suppose market rates drop, as they are now. Can a tennant claim that a landlord by maintaining the previous years rental level is charging in excess of the market rate???

Landlords

I admire your attempts at picking holes in everything I've said Rainyday. We could all got though every line of what everyone says here and surely find someone who disagrees with something.
I do not codone tax evasion beacuse I live in an area that suits me.Never meant to insinuate it ,if thats the way you read it. I do not condone tax evasion because 'it has been going on for years' before I moved in either.It's just the situation I find myself in.

You seem keen to tear holes in my arguments about the way landlords carry on. Have you never rented accommodation ? Have you never suspected 1 of your previous landlords of dodging tax ? Do you have a personal aquaintance who is a landlord and not paying full tax ? Have you reported anyone you suspected?
Do you not think that major tax evasion is going on? Maybe it's been a while since you rented and have forgotten how things were

Anyway,I thought this was a discussion board? I just posted my experiences and views on rent and landlords and wanted to know what other posters views were.

Re: Devils in the Detail

Surely there needs to be some objective measure of rental trends in the market place against which to compare a particular rent increase

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Bearish, the details of the bill were unveiled yesterday. There is no indexation involved so saying 'but, but, but...surely, surely, surely...' isn't going to change anything. The objective measure you seek will have to come via dispute resolution with the Private Residential Tenancies Board.

As I mentioned, the opposition are saying there isn't enough protection for tenants. Some quotes:

The Green party environment spokesman, Mr Ciaran Cuffe, said the Bill did not go far enough. He said rent increases should be capped at 5 per cent above inflation to strike a balance between the rights of tenants and landowners.
The Sinn Féin TD, Mr Arthur Morgan, said rent increases should be index-linked and not market driven. "The failure to address rent regulation and issues regarding affordability will seriously undermine the security of tenure provisions," he said.
The Socialist Party TD, Mr Joe Higgins, said the Bill failed to address "extortionate rents" charged by landlords.
Criticising the measure to set rents at market rates, Mr Higgins said that the "entire control over the levels of rent is placed exclusively in the hands of the landlord class".

Unless there are amendments to the bill, this is what will be brought into legislation.

With regard to your second point, presumably yes, a reduction could be forced (probably via the PRTB) at the yearly rent review if open market rents dropped - "Rents limited to open market levels and only reviewed yearly, at most, if there is no substantial change in the accommodation"

Re: Landlords

Seems to me that Rainyday has a point - surely complaining about tax evasion but directly or indirectly facilitating it or turning a blind eye to it is a bit hypocritical?

Re: Landlords

I admire your attempts at picking holes in everything I've said Rainyday.

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Thank you very much

I do not codone tax evasion beacuse I live in an area that suits me.Never meant to insinuate it ,if thats the way you read it. I do not condone tax evasion because 'it has been going on for years' before I moved in either.

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Your actions (enjoying a reduced rent via your landlords tax evasion) speak louder than your words.

It's just the situation I find myself in.

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True, but I note your extreme reluctance to attempt to resolve the situation by reporting your landlord.

Have you never rented accommodation ?

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Yes - 1990-1994

Have you never suspected 1 of your previous landlords of dodging tax ?

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No - all payments by cheque through a reputable property management agency.

Do you have a personal aquaintance who is a landlord and not paying full tax ?

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Not that I know of or suspect.

Have you reported anyone you suspected?

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Yes, though not a landlord.

I just posted my experiences and views on rent and landlords and wanted to know what other posters views were.

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And you got my views, loud & clear. To be honest, the fact that your landlord evades tax and you enjoy a rent reduction doesn't really surprise me - I guess it's happening all over the country. What really surprises me is that you have the neck to complain about the Govt/Revenue not doing anything about it while you continue to enjoy your reduced rent and refuse to report your landlord. That's good old-fashioned oirish hypocracy, IMHO.

Rents

Well Rainyday, if you think €390 for a single room about 45 minutes walk from town is below market value, that's fine. I think it's expensive as I said earlier. Especially as I;m trying to save a deposit

I am taking no part in any collusion....I saw an ad, looked at the room and was given it. To me it would be in or around the avergae rent for that area and I was the one looking up to recently. I was told by the other people in the house that it was cheaper than what was available beacuse the landlord does'nt bother them too much and does'nt put the rent up too often.
Now his reasons for not putting the rent up on a regular basis could be many, 1 of which may be because there is no rent book and no rent relief been claimed under his name. Another could be that he does'nt want the hassle of arguing with tenants on a regular basis for a hunderd euros or so a month extra.
As for this kind of thing happening all over the country....I don't think so. We've all heard of the huge rent increases over the last 4 or so years. Landlords by large, are'nt worried by the tax man, they just want extra rent.
So I go ahead and report my landlord. Hardly find it suspect that a new tenant has moved in ahd he's got the tax man on his behind. And the end result is that I'm left looking for another house to live in...again. We're not all as lucky as Rainyday to have had only to rent for 4 years. I'm now in my 10th.

Maybe a few more years renting (esp in the last 4-5 with rent increases of 10-15% every year) might have hardened your attitude to Landlords Rainyday :b

Re: Rents

Well Rainyday, if you think €390 for a single room about 45 minutes walk from town is below market value, that's fine. I think it's expensive as I said earlier.

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Hi Delboy - I didn't say that it was below market value, you did - in your original post

My current landlord (a builder per chance) called last night and took over 2k in rent, all cash. [...] In return we pay less than the going rate for the area (lucky us!!!).

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Is your story changing slightly now that it's been subject to some scrutiny.

We're not all as lucky as Rainyday to have had only to rent for 4 years. I'm now in my 10th.

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Agreed - but to me, this has no relevance on the morality of tax evasion. It doesn't become moral if you've hit hard time, are homeless, or are struggling to get a deposit together. It's wrong - plain & simple.

So I go ahead and report my landlord. Hardly find it suspect that a new tenant has moved in ahd he's got the tax man on his behind. And the end result is that I'm left looking for another house to live in...again.

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I'd be a fiver that you'll be long gone from the house (at your own behest) before Revenue get round to taking serious action against the landlord.

Maybe a few more years renting (esp in the last 4-5 with rent increases of 10-15% every year) might have hardened your attitude to Landlords

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I'm not sure what I said that gave the impression that I don't have a 'hard attitude' to landlords. Surely my explicit encouragement to report the landlord for tax evasion makes it clear that I'd be very happy to see a tax-evading landlord being caught. I'm not in any way condoning the landlords action.

I'm just pointing out that you are actively supporting his tax evasion by paying your rent in cash.

Rents

changing my story when subject to scrutiny !!!!!!!
Your not as good yet as say the Gestapo or RUC, Rainyday, to make me change my story under questioning :evil

I'll repeat..... I was told by the people I share with that the rent is cheaper beacuse it's cash,no rent book etc. That's their view. Mine is and has been, that I am paying in or near the market value regardless of what way the landlord is behaving. And I believe my rent is expensive.
I've never indicated anything else in this thread.

And your belief that it will take revenue some time before they act on any tip-offs, blows your line that I should report the landlord out of the water. I intend staying in this house for a long time as moving house is a rotten experience.

So if it takes Revenue so long to act, it just proves my original point that they have no stomach for taking on Landlords and that tax evasion in this area will continue for some time yet (unless Tommy is proved right which I hope he is).....................

Anyone else out there have a view on this.....

Re: Rents

Mine is and has been, that I am paying in or near the market value ... I've never indicated anything else in this thread.

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With the exception of your post where you said "In return we pay less than the going rate for the area"

Lobbying

There is no indexation involved so saying 'but, but, but...surely, surely, surely...' isn't going to change anything.

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As this legislation has yet to be made into law I see no reason why amendments can't be included to make the whole process of comparing market rental levels somewhat objective. In fact I'll be getting onto my local TDs to get them to lobby the minister. I reckon any tenant tired of continual rent increases should do the same. I bet there are a whole lot more tenants then landlords, so if I was a politician I know who I would listen to!

Re: Rents

Did you ask the landlord for a rent book when you moved in. What proof do you have that you have paid rent ? I presume you have a receipt. You can back claim rent relief as far as I know so there's no immediate need to apply if you think you are getting a good deal. If you agreed with the landlord not to apply for the relief in exchange for 'cheaper' rent then you are colluding in tax evasion I'm afraid. I do have sympathy for your plight but I have to agree with Rainyday on this one. If the landlord hasn't given you a rent book then request one. If he then explains that he''ll bump up the rent then play along and report him.

Lobbying

I see no reason why amendments can't be included to make the whole process of comparing market rental levels somewhat objective. In fact I'll be getting onto my local TDs to get them to lobby the minister

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What will you lobby for Bearish? How do you get around the conundrum that if the current tenant is paying less than the market rate (perhaps as a result of years of paying initial rent + an index), the landlord will want him out so that he can get a new tenant at market rate? So you're sacrificing security of tenure for the indexed rent - do you think that's worthwhile? Do you not think the PRTB will provide a forum for deciding what is an acceptable market rent? Do you think that landlord's are entitled to charge the supply/demand driven market rent?

Lobbying

And BTW:

I bet there are a whole lot more tenants then landlords, so if I was a politician I know who I would listen to!

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politicians will listen to whoever gives them the best chance of getting elected - that may be the disgruntled masses or it may be the monied landlords.

[and before the apostrophe police get on my case, I know landlords (plural) shouldn't have an apostrophe - don't know how that slipped in]

Re: Rents

And your belief that it will take revenue some time before they act on any tip-offs, blows your line that I should report the landlord out of the water.

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So if it takes Revenue so long to act, it just proves my original point that they have no stomach for taking on Landlords

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Both these statements are totally untrue.

Any tip-off to Revenue will of course take time for them to process because they will need to assemble evidence (including presumably the landlord's 2002 tax return - not due for filing until 31/10/03) before they take action. This delay does not necessarily mean that such tip-offs are pointless.

Neither does it mean that they "have no stomach for taking on Landlords" - any more than you could say that if the Gardai spend 12 months gathering evidence on a top criminal, that means that they have no intention of prosecuting him.

Finally, as I said earlier, the Revenue actually have a vested interest in delaying proceedings against errant taxpayers - as the longer the delay, the bigger the interest and penalties charged to the taxpayer on arrears if and when a tax default is proved. If the Revenue had clamped down on Bogus Non-Resident Accounts in 1990 they would have collected a small fraction of the amounts collected in the past year or so, because in most cases settled recently, the interest charges have outweighed the original tax owing.

Rents

Rainyday - I have made clear that the comment 'we pay less rent...' was what was said to me by the other people in the house.
I have explicitly stated that I don't believe the rent to be either cheap or out of kilter with the area.

Elacto - I think you need to read more of this discussion before you make any comments about my collusion with the landlord. I have only moved in a few weeks. There are people who have been there for several years. I can't just walk in and take over the house !!!! I would'nt be long there if I tried that.
I don't know of anyone who when offered a room in a house they've viewed, then ask if there is a rent book and is the landlord tax compliant !!!!! Anyone who is currently renting or who has been renting over the last few years has just been thankful to get a room with all the hassle, q's of people etc. involved.

Tommy, I agree with most of what you say but must take issue with 1 point. if the revenue knew in 1990 that there were bogus non-resident accounts they should have moved in then. Holding off for a number of years so as to build up penalty and arrears seems like a very odd policy to me. It just encourages a wider belief that tax evasion is possible and is worth the risk.
Tax evasion needs to be tackled from day 1 in whatever sector so as not to encourage others to try the same thing in others

Re: Rents

My reference to the BNRA's was simply to illustrate a point which countered the erroneous argument you made earlier.

How on earth can the Revenue act on a tip off about someone allegedly making a false tax return in advance of the deadline for that person to submit the return?

Re: Rents

Hi Delboy - You'll be worried if the Revenue act immediately, 'cos you might get thrown out of your house, and you'll be worried if they don't act for a year or two, 'cos then there is no point in investigating.

I think you've clearly demonstrated the classic oirish double-think of ensuring that it's always their fault, regardless of what the problem is, or whoever they are - No need for any personal responsibility. Denial is NOT a river in Egypt.