Yes, but we have established that pilots are special, and that Aer Lingus pilots are the mostest special ones of all!Of course not. And its standard practise when (permanently) transferring to a foreign subsiduary that you resign your post and begin a new contract in the other country.
I'm sick of this protectionist nonsense. If Belfast pilots want to work for different pay and benefits then that's entirely their choice. Let the market decide their wage packet. If they can't hire people for the package they're offering then they'll have to increase it. If not, then that's the true value of the Belfast pilot's work. Welcome to the private sector Aer Lingus employees!
So you'll all be happy knowing that surgeon or pilot, looking after you and yours, is working long shifts, tired and stressed because of the working conditions and is worried about their job security and instead of taking a day, off decided to come in and work. Obviously the consequences of making a mistake are exactly the same as working on a production line or working as a trainee accountant or solicitor.
Deperate is comparing flying a 10-80 tons or more at 400mph, an asset worth millions, and being responsible for hundreds of people with working on a production line in a factory etc.
I am saying that just like every other company in the free world Aer Lingus should have the right to hare locally at local rates.
What about the factory workers in a place like Boston Scientific in Galway or Allergan? If one of those factory workers that you dismiss so flippantly makes a mistake people could die. In the case of Allergan, or any other pharmaceutical company, thousands of people could die. It's unlikely but it is possible.
The airbus planes that Aer Lingus fly are capable of landing under auto pilot so it's not as if the poor pilot is up there flying by the seat of his pants. I am not saying that they don’t have a high level of responsibility or that they should not near the top of the heap pay wise in whatever country they are based in. I am saying that just like every other company in the free world Aer Lingus should have the right to hare locally at local rates.
Yes, I know what you mean.At the end of the day theres always going to begrudgery (especially in Ireland) against well paid people protecting their jobs.
With the money saved Mannion could give himself another bonus. He got €982,000 last year incl a €260,000[/SIZE] bonus. Obviously hes feeling the pinch himself. [SIZE=-1]
Are you being sarcastic or do you not understand the point I made (or both)?Yes good analogy. A factory worker is solely responsible for a drug being made and getting to the consumer. Exactly the same thing.
I agree. If the government want to keep Aer Lingus in Shannon (and I think they should) they should make it commercially attractive to do so.1) It is almost amusing to see those bleating most loudly about the cuts in Shannon being those who welcomed/encouraged/drove the privatisation of Aer Lingus, i.e. IBEC and their fellow-travellers. It seems that their commitment to the free market economy flies straight out the window when their own back yard comes under threat.
This is pure conjecture informed by ideology rather than logic.2) It is of course a logical outcome of the privatisation that the Shannon service would be cut, if more profitable options exist for the Heathrow slot. And of course, it is only a matter of time before the Cork routes get cut. And once EI find that there are more profitable options for the transatlantic service than Dublin, we will find the direct Dublin-US flights cut in favour transiting via some low-cost hub (probably in the Baltics).
The employees are not doing so. A powerful group with a vested interest are attempting to use their shares to damage the rest of the company to serve their own selfish ends. I could paraphrase president Hoover here but I won’t.3) It is equally amusing to hear the proponents of the free market economy squeal when the employees start to play them at their own game, i.e. purchase shares and use shareholder power to direct the company strategy. Isn't the whole purpose of these companies to enrich shareholder value? And if the shareholders choose to do this through salaries and/or conditions (rather than dividends or capital growth), then surely the free market rules apply? So those who oppose this approach should either purchase a majority of shares to overrule them, or sell out and invest elsewhere?
All red herrings. Scare mongering with a very unpleasant xenophobic undertone.4) It is no accident that EI advertised the pilots positions first for the Belfast. They know well that there isn't huge sympathy for those earning €100k+ salaries. Let's not lose sight of the fact that they will take exactly the same approach with the check-in staff, the trolly-dollies and the baggage handlers. All will get squeezed and squeezed down to minimum wage conditions. So the next time the check-in girl doesn't roll out the red carpet with her welcoming smile, you'll know why this happens. The next time the trolly-dolly had difficulty understanding your request to heat the baby's bottle (because of course, she can barely speak English), you'll know why this happens.
As far as I am aware none of the pilots in Dublin will be affected. They won't be asked to relocate, they won't be made redundant, they won't have a pay cut, they won't lose any pension entitlements, there won't be any change in their work practices...
So why are are they striking? What business is it of theirs what Aer Lingus does in belfast. They are paid to fly planes, not to dictate business decisions. As I said before, they can team up with Michael O Leary and let the management know what they think at an EGM. They don't have to ruin 50,000 peoples holiday plans, business trips etc to get their point accross
Well how about trying to get the govt to change the law so the above fits everyone, private and state! The unions are selfish, they are out to squeeze every last cent from the companies they hold to ransom. Their members are either following blindly, not knowing any different (lower wage bracket jobs) or they are using the unions to extract as much from inside their position as possible. Their strikes usually affect the rest of us, mainly in the private sector with interruption of services etc.
So please dont try and sell the hard luck story....
Or maybe they just want to know that when they put in for the transfer to work closer to where they live, instead of having to drive to the south every day, they wont have to take a pay cut?
Propaganda and FUD and has no bearing on this situation, A worker in a factory in Asia, no any factory are a far cry from a set of pilots and their union going on a power trip!
Of course it is not about social justice and the rights of others.I didn't mean that they were demanding parity on behalf of prospective Belfast pilots for the good of society. They are demanding it so their jobs and promotional prospects won't all eventually go North." While I agree in general your comment is a bit general and simplistic. They were formed in an era of huge social change where democratic and egalitarian values that had become the norm for middle classes were permeating down to working class people. This was the same era when people began to challenge Empires and women struggled for equal rights. Most of these causes were supported and often actively run and funded by the trade union movement. Unions have, thankfully, won those battles and now while they do good work on a micro level they generally act to protect special interest groups and support policies that transfer wealth from the poor to the middle classes " [/QUOTE
Unions predated the events you refer to.
[/Quote " No it's not but he or ( she ) should earn more on merit. Remember "a fair days pay for a fair days work"? (It was in the Life of Brian) " [/QUOTE
And who decides what is a fair wage and a fair days work ?
" There is no reason why workers should employees (I dislike the term "worker") "
What do you dislike about the term ' worker' ?
"should not have all the good things you list above but again it should be based on merit. This is not the 1860's, people can move jobs if they don't like the one they have. They are not serfs or indentured servants. Your phrase "Why should once well paid jobs, become less well paid jobs?" is totally disingenuous. Aer Lingus is not reducing the pay of conditions of any pilot that works for them. A person getting paid €20K in Poland will have the same lifestyle as a person getting €100K in Ireland so if that's what local pilots earn why should any airline pay them much more because that's what their pilots get in another country."
Why is this disingenuous ? Eventually these Belfast pilots will be flying out of Dublin, which means that these striking pilots are fighting against being undercut. Aer Lingus need never recruit pilots in the Republic again. Anyway we are not talking about Poland. We are talking about a few miles down the road from Dublin.
" Attempting to establish any equivalence between pilots in a former semi-state airline and Dickensian mill workers is utterly bogus".
I'm not trying to. I'm pointing out that the world has not moved on much since that time. The conditions that made Unions neccessary then, still exist in the modern world. We tolerate and support, exploitation of workers because we have been convinced that profit takes precedence over people.
You should also do a bit of homework before you slot into secondary school debating society clichés about the big bad multinationals. I absolutely agree that they can and do behave very badly in some poor countries. Just remember that most of what we regard as exploitation of workers that takes place in those countries is perpetrated by locals and in many cases it is a result of abject poverty.
Don't be so patronising. I didn't refer to multinationals. Are you saying that it is ok to exploit workers if it is done by a ' local ' employer? If they got a fair wage then they wouldn't be in abject poverty would they?
But this strike is not some crusade for social justice, it's not about the rights of others and it's not about the good of society. It's about a privileged group of upper class professionals resisting a perceived threat to their position of power.
Yes, indeed it is conjecture, but no so much informed by ideology as informed by what happened during the privatisation. There was much conjecture about Shannon before the election, and Cullen was quite clear that Govt would use its shareholding to protect Shannon. Funny how things are not quite so clear-cut now. So just to be clear, are you suggesting that there will be no changes to the schedule for Cork over the next 12 months or so, and Dublin over the next 2-3 years?This is pure conjecture informed by ideology rather than logic.
That's one way of spinning it. Another way is to say that a group of employees are taking legitimate industrial action to protect their future within the airline. And if the ESOT come out and support the pilots, where will that leave us?The employees are not doing so. A powerful group with a vested interest are attempting to use their shares to damage the rest of the company to serve their own selfish ends. I could paraphrase president Hoover here but I won’t.
Unpleasant indeed, though not untypical of the views of the average EI customer. I don't understand your 'red herring' and 'scare mongering' reference. Are you suggesting that EI won't proceed to recruit low level staff on much lower rates than Dublin if they manage to break the pilots?All red herrings. Scare mongering with a very unpleasant xenophobic undertone.
Perhaps it's a protest about who runs the airline, the management or the Board representing the shareholders?This is a protest about who runs the airline, the management or the pilots.
Your phraseology is rather out dated. A carpenter with a couple of lads working for him, a small shop with a few staff, a milkman with a guy working for him, they are all employers. Your archaic way of looking at things suggests that none of the above work as they are not "workers" but "management". The bad news for those who are stuck in a 1900's mindset is that managers work and workers are involved in management.If the employer trys to take as much as he can, why can't the worker try to take as much as he can?
4) It is no accident that EI advertised the pilots positions first for the Belfast. They know well that there isn't huge sympathy for those earning €100k+ salaries. Let's not lose sight of the fact that they will take exactly the same approach with the check-in staff, the trolly-dollies and the baggage handlers. All will get squeezed and squeezed down to minimum wage conditions. So the next time the check-in girl doesn't roll out the red carpet with her welcoming smile, you'll know why this happens. The next time the trolly-dolly had difficulty understanding your request to heat the baby's bottle (because of course, she can barely speak English), you'll know why this happens.
Your phraseology is rather out dated. A carpenter with a couple of lads working for him, a small shop with a few staff, a milkman with a guy working for him, they are all employers. Your archaic way of looking at things suggests that none of the above work as they are not "workers" but "management". The bad news for those who are stuck in a 1900's mindset is that managers work and workers are involved in management.
In the real world of 2007 the clear lines you use to divide the world just don't exist.
A little contradictory, surely?This is a protest about who runs the airline, the management or the pilots.
What is FUD?
Why do you say propaganda? Do you not believe that millions work in terrible conditions?
The same principles apply - Employer trying to squeez maximum from the worker. Always when a company is not making a big enough profit, the blame is laid at the door of the worker. The wage bill is too high, the productivity is too low. A pity they have to pay wages atall.
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