Adverse possession

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Sailorgirk

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I would appreciate any input on this situation it's long winded and complicated.

There are four siblings. A B C D

Siblings A, B and C are joint tenants in common as per the land registry for a small farm since 1960.

Sibling D was the main farmer on lands beside this small farm and he also farmed this small farm belonging to ABC who all would have been well aware of this as they all lived near.
It seemed for whatever reason it was never signed officially over to D. I do remember sibling C and D not speaking over this farm issue many moons ago but it was never formally sorted.

A & B passed away in the 80's and didn't marry or have kids & seems no reference was made to their share or anything if they indeed had wills.?

The main farmer D passed away late 90's & his wife Joan just continued using said farm with her only son Conor . Joan passed recently & Conor is farming this farm as per how his late Dad/mum did & he is awaiting probate. Joan has willed her lands to Conor... Clearly this small farm can't be transfered to Conor officially until the title is sorted.

The last sibling having a 1/3 share in this small farm to pass was C in 2011 and he had five kids say Tom, Bob, Paul, Jane & Betty. .

Tom the executor did extract a grant of probate for C but again no mention of this small farm it seems. Tom passed in 2013 but was very sick within those 2 years of his Dad C passing so I presume if Tom had planned to sort the small farm issue he'd have left it as he was unwell. My understanding is after 6 years where someone passes it's barred to sort stuff out but 12 years for an execetor to sort stuff ? I'm probably completely wrong here.

So does Conor due to his Dad ( D) for years using this small farm, and then his mum Joan after his Dad passed farming it now have automatic squatters rights if Conor applies.

Does the surviving kids of C ie bob, Paul Jane & Betty have any claim to this small farm?
 
Get a solicitor and a Senior Counsel specialising in land law.

Even assuming you've provided full details- and with this saga ongoing for over half a century there's at least 10 times that level detail- the situation is complex enough that any advice you receive here will inevitably be bad.
 
I’m not sure it’s adverse of permission was granted to occupy the land. It’s more of a licence?
 
SquirrelChaser said:
Get a solicitor and a Senior Counsel specialising in land law.

Even assuming you've provided full details- and with this saga ongoing for over half a century there's at least 10 times that level detail- the situation is complex enough that any advice you receive here will inevitably be bad.
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Thank you.. I suppose I presumed it would be a simple case of "squatters rights" and transfer of title to "Conor" now. I guess as this small farm isn't not on paper part of Joan's estate he'll have to chase it all himself with his own team.
 
Dr Strangelove said:
It's a "small farm" - I mean this could be five hectares of sheep farming in Roscommon.

The fees after involving an SC could be huge relative to the value of the land in question.
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And it could be 50 hectares in Meath, 10 of which have been zoned residential in the last County Development Plan. "Small" means different things to different people.

And the land has no current value beyond whatever grant money it's worth. 100% of nuthin is still nuthin.

It's a complex mix of land law and succession law spread over at least 64 years and potentially affecting at least 6 families (the cousins) each of whom are potential litigants.

An educated guess suggests there's some paperwork to link the legal owners of the folio to the people who've been getting grants for farming it for decades which may complicate things further.

Unless sleeping dogs are going to be let lie professional legal services are absolutely required.
 
For city folk this is almost like one of those online puzzles, but in rural Ireland it is probably more common than many think.

A good local rural solicitor is probably the best starting point

Or if the person currently farming is a member of a farming group, eg IFA, that would also be another option as they may have expertise available as part of the membership.

Alternatively, work out the value and up to 50% of that could be offered as payment.

You never know when you need assistance from the extended family, so that might be the best long term option and a pleasant surprise for them.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
So Conor owns 1/3rd anyway.
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But wouldn't Conor get to own it all now through squatters rights? If he applies to the land registry folk for the title & says his Dad farmed it for years until he passed & then his Mam & Conor farmed it without any word or objections from the the owners on paper or the cousins?
 
Well if he applies to the land registry there are a few possible outcomes

The application is rejected due to incorrect application.
The application is rejected as the land registry deem him not to be the owner.
The application is accepted.

Can Conor offer Bob, Paul, Jane and Betty, and as a group the children of Tom, €5K each to relinquish any ownership rights they have to the €150K farm. Explain they may have a right to a max of €20K each (7.5%) but they will need a solicitor to sort it all out (estimate costs of €5K) and may need to pay revenue 33% of inheritance tax if over the relevant threshold so would they take €5K as a final offer to sign a relinquishment of potential ownership. They are his first cousins to Conor so probably have some empathy for him. Plus Tom messed up his Dads probate by not including all assets so there may be further costs for Bob, Paul, Jane & Betty to rectify that. If any reject his offer Conor should request that they legally take ownership of their share. He should be willing to carve off 7.5% from the edge of his farm for them.

Inaction by Bob Paul Jane & Betty is probably Conor’s worst outcome, so offering them a simple solution for a small enough sum of money may be worthwhile. He should get his solicitor to draft up any letter.
 
Thank you Clambell indeed! That sounds a win win solution. Tom was married with no kids so would his widow have any part/claim of Toms share on this farm or just be Bob, Paul, Jane and Betty?
 
Clamball said:
Well if he applies to the land registry there are a few possible outcomes

The application is rejected due to incorrect application.
The application is rejected as the land registry deem him not to be the owner.
The application is accepted.

Can Conor offer Bob, Paul, Jane and Betty, and as a group the children of Tom, €5K each to relinquish any ownership rights they have to the €150K farm. Explain they may have a right to a max of €20K each (7.5%) but they will need a solicitor to sort it all out (estimate costs of €5K) and may need to pay revenue 33% of inheritance tax if over the relevant threshold so would they take €5K as a final offer to sign a relinquishment of potential ownership. They are his first cousins to Conor so probably have some empathy for him. Plus Tom messed up his Dads probate by not including all assets so there may be further costs for Bob, Paul, Jane & Betty to rectify that. If any reject his offer Conor should request that they legally take ownership of their share. He should be willing to carve off 7.5% from the edge of his farm for them.

Inaction by Bob Paul Jane & Betty is probably Conor’s worst outcome, so offering them a simple solution for a small enough sum of money may be worthwhile. He should get his solicitor to draft up any letter.
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Nice logical proposal @Clamball sadly it may not be received as such.
 
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