A rant about skills (the lack of them)

I am already seen as weird because I choose to eat my lunch alone in peace rather than sit 15 round a table designed for 6, bitching and moaning about how hard done by I am. I am simply relieved to have a job and will be doing my utmost to keep it.
 
You'll get a reputation for being anti-social doing that

I know as I got that label
 
I think that's a big part of the problem with Irish people; they couldn't be bothered doing the job properly.
 
The two best tradesmen I ever used were Irish, a plumber and a tiler. But they are exceedingly rare and hard to find. I would rate the quality of work of a Pole/Lituanian/Latvian more highly than the work of Irish tradesman. Also their time keeping, dedication to getting the job done properly and taking pride in their work. And their tidiness. Hope some of it has rubbed off on the Irish lads. In general now when I have work I ask a foreigner first as I feel I cannot trust the Irish workers. No foreigner ever refused a job for being too small, plenty of Irish did.

Irish workers who went abroad seemed to be a different type, particularly in the US. Seeme to me a lot of the go getters left. I know this is a generalisation but I have plenty of experience. In addition they are excellent tenants to the point where I'd rather not have Irish tenant's. Is that inverted racism?
 
Bronte said:
Is that inverted racism?
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Yes, generalisation and every other phrase I can think of.

There are bad Irish tradesmen and bad people everywhere, as Purple said the govt messed the whole system up when they brought AnCO in to take care of apprentices.

What used to happen before was a company would have so many tradesmen and for every trades men they could have 2 or 3 apprectices and the skills could be passed on but more you had to get rid of a trades man before you could get rid of an apprentice.

What we have now is a whole generation of half trained tradesmen who have nothing of value to pass on.

That said there are good guys out there but you have to know who they are.

I've seen good work by foreign tradesmen but I have also seen some appalling work by them as well.

Why not put a sign outside your house, "Irish need not apply"?
 
I've had mixed experience with trades people, but in general I have found the Eastern Europeans of a much higher standard. On two occasions I had an Irish plumber and an Irish carpenter out to do some work, and on both occasions an Eastern European was paid to fix problems that I spotted, plus they fixed other problems that they never initially quoted for.
What I liked most was that the Eastern Europeans arrived bang on time and were done in the time they said and for the price they said.
Worst experience was the Irish carpenter who destroyed a freshly painted wall and tried to tell me that a door not closing properly, one that he had hung, was not his problem. I have had a great Irish electrician though, but funnily enough he had learned his trade in Canada.
 
We have 300,000+ unemployed, yet:

Google and other IT firms must import workers.

Three of the fishermen who drowned last week were Egyptian

Many shops in Dublin employ Asians

We import Asian and African doctors


There is clearly something wrong, a skills mis-match between the unemployed and vacancies.
 

In the case of Google and other IT firms, they are generally looking for people with very specialist skills coupled with a lot of experience, so it's something we cannot immediately provide to them. Ditto for doctors..we could (and should) increase the numbers who study medicine, but again that would take 7+ years to filter through.

This leaves the unskilled jobs. There is no reason that anyone should not be able work in these jobs with minimal training. Therefore, you have to ask yourself why are these jobs not being filled. It's obvious that it's not in the person on the dole's interest..
 
Protocol said:
We have 300,000+ unemployed, yet:

Google and other IT firms must import workers.

There is clearly something wrong, a skills mis-match between the unemployed and vacancies.
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There simply are not enough skilled/experienced people in ireland to fill these types of jobs/roles and the bad press that the IT industry got during the early to mid 00's really hit hard in terms of the numbers of people applying to college for IT courses. And as numbers applying dropped the ability of the people dropped also.

eg Computer Applications in DCU (my old college course) for the past few years is as follows :
2011 - 340
2010 - 325
2009 - 315
2008 - 300
2007 - 300
2006 - 300
2005 - 300
2004 - 300
2003 - 300
2002 - 350
2001 - 360
2000 - 385
1999 - 385
1998 - 420
1997 - 410

It's good to see that some colleges / companies have started trying to upskill the types of graduates that are coming out of college but it will take some time before we have enough good people for the roles out there.
 
nai said:
It's good to see that some colleges / companies have started trying to upskill the types of graduates that are coming out of college but it will take some time before we have enough good people for the roles out there.
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Yes, that's the point; it takes years for people to reach the peak in their chosen field. I'd say at least 10 years in my area and I'd assume it's the same in IT etc.
 
Purple said:
Yes, that's the point; it takes years for people to reach the peak in their chosen field. I'd say at least 10 years in my area and I'd assume it's the same in IT etc.
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Again, it's trade specific. I know Google are big on academic achievement first for their engineers (the DIT figures above are depressing) but like to take the best of the best (as it were) from college and have them fresh to fit into the google culture. Similarly, they'd take a manager with an MBA over managers with no academic background and experience in most cases.

I think the construction boom just had too much to do with losing skills, so many industries built up around it or were riding the coattails that we were just too narrow in our education.

Ironically, some of the surviving construction companies are starting to do ok and are recruiting. I was talking to a few yesterday and they're facing a massive problem in that they can't recruit Irish engineers with experience because they aren't here anymore and don't want to come back. They're having import skills.

Just one last note to keep the sweeping generalisations going. I recently had call to use an Irish carpenter and Irish plumber. The work was second to none (carpenter even came back a week later as he wasn't happy with the way he'd installed a runner and it had been bugging him. He basically took out a whole unit and did it again even though we thought it was fine).

This is alonge side work that was done via foriegn labour where we had to keep getting them out to fix several issues over and over. In the end, the plumber even offered to fix some of it while he was there.

So, it's pot luck who you get. But every trade and every skill has it's good and bad irrespective of nationality.
 

Now, don't go ruining things by talking common sense!
 

True but Google then train them. Many businesses don't have the resources to do that. It will still take a number of years for them to peak, even within Google.

I agree with your point about construction trades (and pot luck).
I don't care where the skilled people came from as long as they are here.
 
Purple said:
Yes, that's the point; it takes years for people to reach the peak in their chosen field. I'd say at least 10 years in my area and I'd assume it's the same in IT etc.
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It's the same but getting better - I've just got involved with lecturing some students in DIT on a MSc course that is very industry aware - the college wanted industry professionals to give the courses rather than academics - go figure
 
nai said:
It's the same but getting better - I've just got involved with lecturing some students in DIT on a MSc course that is very industry aware - the college wanted industry professionals to give the courses rather than academics - go figure
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I've had dealings with Bolton Street, Maynooth, UCD and Trinity over the years. Bolton Street were very industry aware, Maynooth less so but still good. UCD and Trinity were in a world of their own. Obviously I can only speak about my own experience and that is limited and specific to a particular field but the engineering department in Bolton Street stands out for me as being very willing to engage with industry in a practical day-to-day way whereas the rest were just harvesting grants for their post-grad students.
 
Well Purple someone has been listening to you, they were discussing a new tax option to hire skilled people on the radio yesterday. But maybe it was just a tax dodge.

Question for you, how come these colleges you liase with don't have a course for the particular skill set your company (and others) require. When my kids are older I'll sign them up for it as a real course because with a real job at the end would get my vote.
 


Hi Bronte, The problem is that I'm talking about apprenticeships that require the engineering department of a college and FAS to run the overall training. I don't blame FAS for the changes; it was the department of education that screwed things up. They in turn were influenced by organisations like the ESB and other so-called commercial semi-states who wanted more "talk and chalk" to make trades into pseudo-diploma courses. It also suited the building trades as their skill levels aren't as high. It left engineering trades in an impossible position.
The trainee has to do a 4 year apprenticeship and then spend an additional 4-6 years working under an experienced tradesperson to become fully competent. Along the way they will also have to get a CAD/CAM qualification (or training) and a host of other ancillary training. At that stage they will never be out of a job. In reality it’s not much different to any other skilled job; you learn and train long after you are nominally qualified and it takes time to get to the top of your game. I’d suggest that there are plenty of technically harder jobs out there that don’t pay as well.
 
Purple said:
; it was the department of education that screwed things up. They in turn were influenced by organisations like the ESB and other so-called commercial semi-states who wanted more "talk and chalk" to make trades into pseudo-diploma courses. .
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So the Department of Education run courses to suit ESB and other semi states ?

And previous work, a trade, has been changed to be more academic to suit them. Because everyone wants an academic training (diploma) and are not content to have 'just' a trade. Have I got that right? Kinda like nurses now with diplomas who won't clean patients or a bed pan or provide a cup of tea.
 
Yea, that's about it. The department doesn't run the courses but they have a significant input into developing them.
I remember as a third year apprentice sitting in a classroom in Bolton Street discussing Voltaire. Not he was a very interesting guy and we have a lot to thank him for but I don't see the link between Toolmaking and the evolution of thinking the culminated in The Enlightenment.
The current course structure is subjective in how it’s graded and too abstract in its content. It places way too much responsibility on the employer to grade and rank the trainee and the employer has no objective standard to rank the trainee against.
 
Main problem is that colleges are only utilised for a fraction of the year.

There is no push on to re-skill.

Government jobs iniatative was a PR stunt.
You can't even get tax relief if you do a course but there is incentives for property.
Crazy.
 
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