A new Education System

Purple

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Jim O'Hara, General manager of Intel Ireland and VP of their Corporate Technology Manufacturing Group, have a very interesting opinion piece in the [broken link removed] today.

Do posters agree with him?

Note: it's not the Indo so the pinko's amongst us are allowed to read it.
 
Had to argue against most of it. Not too sure about merit pay for teachers and I think he could have spent more time on what industry could do with regards education. At the moment, industry involvement is very at the high end R&D in third level education. I would like to see more private investment in second level.
 
I see nothing wrong with merit pay. I also think that the STEM subjects must be prioritised. Perhaps they should carry higher marks?
We also need to look at the languages. Students can hardly speak French/German/Italian after leaving secondary school.
Basically, the humanities such as history and geography will need to take a back seat as we promote subjects that actually help build an economy.
 
I've heard Jim a couple of times and I can't disagree too greatly with the concept, but that's all he really provides: concept, and this article is no different. I'd like to see a bit more substance rather than just "more practical application" well how? What examples do we have? In some aspects of mathematics there is no practical application for the mathematician anyway, it's other branches of science that introduce the application.

I'd agree that there are failings in the education system when it comes to science and maths, I experienced them too, but I'm unsure of just how we tackle that effectively. Will private sector investment help? Not sure, what are they going to do, say, provide, influence? I don't mean I'm paranoid about private sector involvement, but what's the proposal, what's the detail, what is the Resturant Manager of a McDonalds going to bring to education in our schools?

I'm also dubious of a merit system in education. Merit on what? results? Then we just go back to teaching for students to pass exams, same problem we have now. Do we use ratemyteacher.com, happy sheets filled in by students? One way is to measure improvement in student performance, but what about the teachers who have the honours class who're all on the road to good results anyway?

I do have serious concerns about the science and maths education, even from dealing with recent graduates, I know the concepts behind how it could be improved, but I'm not sure of the detail of how to introduce those concepts.
 
The negative slant on the following quote surprised me - surely this is quite a high position for a small country such as ours?

"In terms of output of the current education system, the news looks even worse. On overall quality of post-primary education and training in 2009-2010, the World Economic Forum ranked Ireland only number 20 in the world. "

I'm not defending the education system in Ireland, just surprised how he can say we are "only" number 20 in the world?
 
The negative slant on the following quote surprised me - surely this is quite a high position for a small country such as ours?

"In terms of output of the current education system, the news looks even worse. On overall quality of post-primary education and training in 2009-2010, the World Economic Forum ranked Ireland only number 20 in the world. "

I'm not defending the education system in Ireland, just surprised how he can say we are "only" number 20 in the world?

Its relative to how much we spend. We probably spend as much as other Countries relative to our GDP so size doesn't really matter. Or so I was told!
 
I'd agree that there are failings in the education system when it comes to science and maths, I experienced them too, but I'm unsure of just how we tackle that effectively. Will private sector investment help? Not sure, what are they going to do, say, provide, influence? I don't mean I'm paranoid about private sector involvement, but what's the proposal, what's the detail, what is the Resturant Manager of a McDonalds going to bring to education in our schools?

Private investment can take many forms. We can't expect the State to provide our schools with everything they need. There simply isn't enough money. For example, when I worked in London with a financial firm, they sponsored 5 maths teachers each year to receive extra training on the subject. It was a small gesture but apparently it was a huge success with regards to pupils results. They also various initiatives to encourage students to continue studying maths and science in third level. For example, they ran a competition where the winners received guaranteed places in the company's graduate programme dependent on getting a university degree.

Just a small example but you get a gist. I am sure there is a more structured way and widely beneficial way that the largest employers in this country can play a role in second level education.
 
Good examples Sunny. I do have one issue with a small part, but I'll come to that in a general sense. First things first, the private sector has a role in the sense that an educated and healthy population benefits them.

However, the concern is that the rewards for places on schemes for students, awards, etc, doesn't generate additional interest in a subject, it rewards those who would already continue in that subject. At least that's how I see it.

There has to be a reward for the private employer outside of social responsibility. While some employers would do something to give something back to the community, there's a danger that some would do it for their own reward. So we could end up with a similar situation to America where the corporate involvement is to cherry pick the brightest and the best. There is no incentive to bring those outside the science area into this area.

The main argument is why are we losing so many to these areas? It's nothing to do with lack of involvement with employers and even so, at what stage would an employer's involvement be fruitful? I'd honestly say it's only around Leaving Cert time when kids are starting to think about what path they want to take. Well we've already lost too many at that stage.

I can only relate to my education in the distant past and in discussion with those who have taken the science route, it doesn't appear to be any different. We just don't teach science right, we just don't get the interest at an early enough stage.

[warning scientific preaching and rambling]

Science is all about curiosity, curiosity at how things work. That's how it came about and that's how it progresses. From that curiosity we get science applied to day to day useful, life saving, important and awe inspiring technology. But the curiosity came first, the application came after.

My point is: what kids aren't curious? when they're very young they're full of curiosity. My experience was that this was never satisifed at school in the teaching of science. Each subject (including maths) was taught as an abstract, indepenedent topic. Never the twain shall meet. Not one application to anything I was curious about (apart from nuddie girls).

I had one stand in teacher due to illness who's lesson plan in science was the star wars film and then an application (or dismissal) of scientific concepts. Genius. From then on I was hooked.

Same with one maths teacher, each new subject in maths had an entire lesson prefacing the history of the subject. So when we did calculus, it wasn't just hieroglyphic symbols on a page, it was the whole history of Newton and Leibniz, then the hieroglyphs.

Ok we all remember the good teachers, but I do feel that science is so easy to apply to the world as it is the world, the universe and everything. But it can be difficult to make that link until it is pointed out. The education system needs to do more to do this. That's not a criticism of teachers, I don't think the system allows them to or gives them the time and luxury of doing this. But I also feel there are some teachers who actually can't make that connection themselves or have no interest in making that connection.

Private sector involvement is really at the later stages of the education system, the means of seeing the opportunities in a chosen field or supporting and rewarding that chosen field. But we have to look at how we get that buy-in before then when it's just too late in development.
 
Can't argue with any of that Latrade. However, as you say there is a need to get interest in a subject. Can be very difficult for a teacher to achieve. For example, there is a large and increasing computer games industry in this country and yet kids don't understand how maths and physics are essential when designing and creating these games. A teacher might tell the students about it but kids probably go yeah yeah yeah...They probably need to see it and explained to them by someone that isn't their geeky teacher!

I just wonder is there someway that the private industry can take a bigger role in showcasing subjects like maths and science to show the relevence instead of leaving it up to children to find their way into the field. I think that if IT companies are worried about the lack of people doing science, they should start selling science to kids. Young Scientists Competition is a great concept but I am sure it could be vastly improved and built upon with a bit of investment.
 
Totally agree, the computing industry is one of the areas I'd say could get involved. It doesn't have to go into detail on the actual maths behind it, just demonstrate how it relates. You could even go further and look at computer animation etc and the application there. It's the usual fair with these things, pharmachem companies and the like. What kid wants to wear a white coat and conduct lab trials on the new viagra when they're 13? Who's really interested in that area when they're 13?

I know for a fact if these companies were approached they'd love to do something with kids. These are perfect examples of the kind of industry that needs people to go into this area to survive. But they aren't asked. Is it up to them to make the approach to a school of the Department, or should the school/Department be approaching them?
 
Totally agree, the computing industry is one of the areas I'd say could get involved. It doesn't have to go into detail on the actual maths behind it, just demonstrate how it relates. You could even go further and look at computer animation etc and the application there. It's the usual fair with these things, pharmachem companies and the like. What kid wants to wear a white coat and conduct lab trials on the new viagra when they're 13? Who's really interested in that area when they're 13?

I know for a fact if these companies were approached they'd love to do something with kids. These are perfect examples of the kind of industry that needs people to go into this area to survive. But they aren't asked. Is it up to them to make the approach to a school of the Department, or should the school/Department be approaching them?

You would probably be surprised what they are interested in at 13!

Good point about the Department. Wonder how closely they work with the department of trade and enterprise.
 
The big problem with the Irish education system is that there is practically no science thought in primary school. I agree with Latrade on the curiousity thing - and primary school kids are very very curious about practical scientific stuff.

I believe the reason that no science is thought in primary school is in order to accommodate the Irish language. My opinion, which I'm sure wont go down well with gaelgoirs, is that the several hours a week dedicated to Irish should instead be dedicated to science. This will mean that most of our primary school kids will have a good grounding in the basics before they start second level. Second level can then build on this and the benefits will naturally carry through to third level and beyond.
 
The big problem with the Irish education system is that there is practically no science thought in primary school. I agree with Latrade on the curiousity thing - and primary school kids are very very curious about practical scientific stuff.

I believe the reason that no science is thought in primary school is in order to accommodate the Irish language. My opinion, which I'm sure wont go down well with gaelgoirs, is that the several hours a week dedicated to Irish should instead be dedicated to science. This will mean that most of our primary school kids will have a good grounding in the basics before they start second level. Second level can then build on this and the benefits will naturally carry through to third level and beyond.

Fair point even though not getting into the Irish debate!
 
I'm not touching the Irish debate either. I can speak it but that's from attending an Irish club every week of my teenage years and not from what I learned in school. I see nothing wrong with reducing the hours spent on Irish ( or history and geography) if it means some basic practical science will be thought at primary level.
 
Maybe teach science in primary school in Irish!

The problem is there's a whole load of subjects and topics we could say are vital for primary school kids, but only so much time to fit them in. Some are always to be left out, but I would argue science is fundamental.

Again, from experience, some of the teachers I know, knew didn't have the confidence to get too detailed about answering the questions and curiosity of the kids. That's not saying I'm smarter, just they weren't totally versed in science to really want to do anything that might result in awkward questions. My response is they're not expected to know everything or answer everything, part of the fun of learning is finding stuff out for yourself. So if there's an awkward question you can't answer, then set it as a bit of work with the class and yourself to find out the answer. There's so many instant resources available now it's not that difficult.
 
In fairness, merit pay is difficult for teachers. You can link it to exam results but the results may not always be down to the individual teachers, they can be influenced by the resources a school has (eg languague labs) or the ability of Mammy and Daddy to pay for grinds. I'm a firm believer as well that the attitude of parents at home to education is a key factor in how well a child does at school.

However, what I would like to see if a more robust mechanism for getting rid of rubbish teachers. It's 20 odd years since I did the Leaving, I can recall teachers who inspired me in subjects and made learning interesting, and teachers who bored me to death, who couldn't be bothered their back sides turning up some days (or if they did, it was never on time), who talked hurling or anything else bar the subject or even set the lab on fire. Those teachers need to be retrained or removed permanently. Strengthen the school inspectorate system and clear the dead wood out.

Why not replace them with graduates who perhaps hadn't considered teaching but can't find a job elsewhere?. You could incentivise them to work in inner city schools for example, as they do in the US. I'd also like to see schools bring in outside subject matter experts. I've done the odd guest lecture in 3rd level on business, I'd be happy to do similer once a month in the local school for business studies, and I'm sure others would as well. You could bring in professional musicians/people who work in recording studios into music studies, accountants for accountancy, lab technicions for science subjects etc etc. Send teachers in the other direction as well. Why not make science teachers work for 2 weeks in industry labs every couple of years as part of ongoing refresher training for example

Perhaps more importantly, kids need to spend more time at school. A 2nd level child, not in an exam year, could have up to 5 months off a year, between Easter/Christmas/summer holidays, half term, etc etc. You won't learn if you're not there
 
Private investment can take many forms. We can't expect the State to provide our schools with everything they need. There simply isn't enough money. For example, when I worked in London with a financial firm, they sponsored 5 maths teachers each year to receive extra training on the subject. It was a small gesture but apparently it was a huge success with regards to pupils results. They also various initiatives to encourage students to continue studying maths and science in third level. For example, they ran a competition where the winners received guaranteed places in the company's graduate programme dependent on getting a university degree.
Maybe private industries should just start paying some appropriate levels of tax, then ALL the schools could get the resources they need.
 
Maybe private industries should just start paying some appropriate levels of tax, then ALL the schools could get the resources they need.

You know that's such a crazy idea it might just work. Though we'll have to ignore issues like the increase in resources to education over the years being wasted because of bad management and not resulting in any significant improvements in education and that there's a culture of more resources higher wages, but apart from that...oh and the issue that resources into schools and schooling has nothing to do with the quality of education in these areas.

I totally agree we should ignore large employers who are experiencing problems finding graduates of the right calliber, capitialist pigs they're only interested in their profits. Sure, it helps ensure new products and employment here, but it's slave labour anyway brothers, we can see through the neo-con agenda! And I couldn't agree more that even if they had to pay 50% corporation tax many of these employers would still like to aid and encourage pupils to take an interest in technical subjects and it's the education system that isn't tapping into this will.

Aside from that though: +1
 
Funny how there was no arguement about the benefits rof extra resources for schools until the dreaded T-word (tax) was mentioned. It was all gung-ho with the extra resources, until the idea of them being provided as a matter of rights/entitlement instead of the tug-o-the-forelock charitable crumbs dropped from the table of private industry.

But suddenly now extra resources aren't really needed? I'm a bit confused, Ted.
 
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