A Landlord's experience

A

aido71

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Now posting as we are finally at the end of a long difficult journey to regain possession of our house. Will try to be as brief but I could write a book!

Background: Purchased an investment property about 18 years ago. Got tenant in place and after a few years his daughter took over the tenancy and no issues. At this point she had a young daughter. HAP tenant no issue.

Fast forward a few years now there with partner and 4 kids...overall decent tenant rent paid on time for the most part....few late payments but nothing too major. We kept rent at a reasonable amount as more content with good tenant. RTB compliant and tax returns completed each year.


3 years ago decided time to sell up.... decent equity built up own kids almost through college and time to scale back on high pressure jobs. Gave notice as required (as long time tenants was 9 or 10 mths).

Shortly after they enquired about purchasing the house. Nothing to lose as had to wait anyway so got a very fair valuation done and furnished a copy. They came back with a slightly lower offer but we were ok with that....selling to them if it worked out save a lot of hassle as is and they buying it as is.

Initially asked if we would take part cash but quickly knocked that on the head and gave them solicitors details. Then started the process of offer being made agreement re deposit etc with their solicitors. This dragged on (they were having challenges re the mortgage)

and then eviction ban kicked in. Immediately all communication ceased from them.....again we were in the notice period so not bothered.

Then week before Christmas solicitor received another offer of a ridiculous amount along with a copy of a "drive by" valuation (didn't know such a thing existed). Laughable and the house details weren't even accurate. i figured they were banking on us being desperate to sell and were just trying it on. Dismissed it and no further contact.

Literally the day after ban lifted reverted with an offer only slightly less than original. At this point not interested and just wanted them out.

Notice period ended and promises of being out few weeks time etc and then nothing. Would not answer calls/texts etc, however at least rent still being paid though now probably half what we could get but no matter.

So started the RTB process and to make a generality it is in my experience the most farcical organisation in existence. Despite requesting to go straight to dispute we were forced through mediation.

We got letters from RTB instructing that if we were not available on the date propose (BTW long waiting period to get here) it would be dismissed.

We showed up (on phone) no tenants. Now we had to wait another interminable period to get a hearing. Finally did and same thing no show from tenants but hearing still goes ahead!! (other way around and it would have been thrown out!).

While we didn't have to we did this in conjunction with solicitor (on Teams) and it was shocking. At this point no longer paying rent. The lady chairing this queried the original witness signature on the notice (a local guard signed this along with station stamp). She stated they were not authorised and despite arguing they are officers of the court upshot was the finding was against us!!!

Almost 3 years down the line. So in effect back to square one.

However I was aware through friends in that estate that they had bought another house literally 3 doors down (due to some antisocial behaviour the lady just wanted out so i reckon they got it for a bargain). It took a further 4 months before we managed to get the keys back (wont go into detail how we managed this!). And as for the state of the place well lets just say it will take some cleaning up! Electricity disconnected due non payment and huge bill.

But finally have it back....Locks all changed....electric back on and boiler fixed.


So that is what faces Landlords....i appreciate not all tenants like this and not all landlords decent but i would never ever encourage anyone to rent a house out. Once those keys out of your hands no guarantee ever get them back!

Now i never stressed about this and i know i am so fortunate: i always knew we would get it back someday......we are fortunate that we could carry this financially and did not impact on our lives. But how many others out there suffering both mentally and financially? An absolute disgrace that this is how things are.
So just my experience which I figured would share. Again I have nothing against tenants either private or HAP but that this behaviour is not only allowed but i would argue encouraged through lack of consequence makes me despair at where we are headed!!
 
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There are certainly issues with the RTB but in this case they were 100% correct in their determination.

A statutory declaration can only be made before a practising solicitor, commissioner for oaths, notary public, peace commissioner or any other person that is authorised by law to administer oaths.

A random Garda is not an officer of the Court and is not authorised to administer oaths.

So, your purported notice of termination was invalid and your tenant was under no legal obligation to quit the property.

I sincerely hope that you secured a letter from your tenant confirming that they are voluntarily quitting the property and are waiving all rights in relation to their tenancy. Otherwise you could well run into issues selling the property.

I appreciate that you have had a bad time of it but the process for terminating a tenancy is set out in legislation - you can’t just make it up.

IMO anybody that is planning to issue a notice of termination would be well advised to consult a solicitor - it is extremely easy for a lay person to make a mistake and the consequences can be material.
 
My brother in Cork has given notice to tenants past month. Over 15yrs in the game. Negative experience regarding PRTB.
My lease is up next November. 22 years in the game finishing up. Also negative nonsense from PRTB.
 
There technology and some of the operators are from the " Flinstone era" . I know that I am showing my age now. Barney, Fred & Wilma were cartoon characters in basically a stone age cartoon back when I was a child.
You can google them out of curiosity and you will get my drift.
 
A good few years back while on the road I received a phone call from a gent from the PRTB. He caught me on the hop. Aggressive and horrible on the phone stating that reg. of my rental was not in order and listed penalty etc. I told him I had registered a few months back.
Nope again he went on about penalties etc. I again told the gent I recalled paying the fee.
To cut a long story short I paid reg. over the phone. Few days later I checked my rental file and yep reg had been payed few months previously.
Well it took me months for the return of my second payment.
Around 6 months of chasing I got my refund cheque in the post with a stinker of a letter along the lines it was up to me to ensure my property was registered again listing out penalties.
 
Sarenco said:
IMO anybody that is planning to issue a notice of termination would be well advised to consult a solicitor - it is extremely easy for a lay person to make a mistake and the consequences can be material.
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I fully agree. I know more about tenancy law than 95% of landlords and I still used a solicitor for terminating a tenancy last year. In fact that’s exactly why I did!

There are bigger policy issues here:
-since 2016 tenants’ rights have been improved but landlords’ rights have not. It’s actually possible to do both;
-RTB is barely competent and has a built-in pro-tenant bias in how it interprets rules. But the bigger problem is the rules themselves.
 
Brendan Burgess said:
If you put a whole pile of hurdles for a landlord to jump over, they have a good chance of falling at one of them.
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The following was set out a few years ago on another thread, I can't find it now.

But a tenant can give notice and rescind it up to and including the day of termination for no reason whatsoever.

Even if a landlord has new tenants set up and ready to move in.
 
@aido71 It seems to me lthey were initially ok tenants but the RTB anti landlord rules encouraged them to take advantage of their tenancy with you. Government sponsored theft. I have empty houses because of this. It is shocking for the mostly good tenants and landlords that this behaviour is not only encouraged but sponsored. Well done for getting your property back. Feels great, but you know you have been shafted.
 
I actually have no issue per de with a decision made against us if we have erred in the notification. My whole point of posting is to highlight the process the need to be vigilant to ensure all steps done correctly and the fact that it would appear in my experience that there is no balance with Landlord rights. We complied with all requirements as Landlords
  1. Registered with RTB
  2. Filed Annual Tax Returns
  3. Made all necessary repairs
  4. Paid LPT
  5. Complied with requirements following 2 Inspections over the years
  6. Reduced rent during recession era
  7. Gave Tenants the required notice period (<9mths)
Yes we made an error in who witnessed the Termination notice but is it right that:
  • It takes 2+ years to get to a hearing for a determination
  • No consequence for Tenant not attending any mediation/hearing yet Landlord a no show then found against
  • Tenant can stop paying rent and no consequence (by this i mean during this whole process if our tenants never paid rent it would still have taken the same length of time)
  • Tenant leaves property destroyed and no consequence
Yes for long period decent tenants but obviously knew that they could play the system and drag the process out for years with no negative consequences for them. That they were HAP tenants should be irrelevant but it is sad that they are part of the "take" society......contribute nothing but expect everything to be provided. The way they left the property shows what lack of respect they have. We have a very comfortable life thanks to working hard for everything we have and the work ethos instilled in me by my parents. Unfortunately a sadly growing number of those who no longer think like that.

Anyhow we are out the other side........my purpose in posting was not to garner sympathy (or scorn) but merely a real life story of what it is like being a landlord and why i would never encourage anyone to get into this as the system is stacked entirely on one side in my humble opinion
 
It really was a monumental error to have the Statutory Declaration witnessed by a Garda.
I'm delighted you eventually gained vacant possession. Thankfully the property wasn't thrashed.
 
aido71 said:
I actually have no issue per de with a decision made against us if we have erred in the notification. My whole point of posting is to highlight the process the need to be vigilant to ensure all steps done correctly and the fact that it would appear in my experience that there is no balance with Landlord rights. We complied with all requirements as Landlords
  1. Registered with RTB
  2. Filed Annual Tax Returns
  3. Made all necessary repairs
  4. Paid LPT
  5. Complied with requirements following 2 Inspections over the years
  6. Reduced rent during recession era
  7. Gave Tenants the required notice period (<9mths)
Yes we made an error in who witnessed the Termination notice but is it right that:
  • It takes 2+ years to get to a hearing for a determination
  • No consequence for Tenant not attending any mediation/hearing yet Landlord a no show then found against
  • Tenant can stop paying rent and no consequence (by this i mean during this whole process if our tenants never paid rent it would still have taken the same length of time)
  • Tenant leaves property destroyed and no consequence
Yes for long period decent tenants but obviously knew that they could play the system and drag the process out for years with no negative consequences for them. That they were HAP tenants should be irrelevant but it is sad that they are part of the "take" society......contribute nothing but expect everything to be provided. The way they left the property shows what lack of respect they have. We have a very comfortable life thanks to working hard for everything we have and the work ethos instilled in me by my parents. Unfortunately a sadly growing number of those who no longer think like that.

Anyhow we are out the other side........my purpose in posting was not to garner sympathy (or scorn) but merely a real life story of what it is like being a landlord and why i would never encourage anyone to get into this as the system is stacked entirely on one side in my humble opinion
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Excellent read for all those anti landlord people out there. Fully agree the "take, take, take" mentally is sadly growing.
 
Haven't had to do it (give notice) however I wouldn't attempt it, the procedure is designed to set the unfortunate Landlord up for failure.
Get a Solicitor to do it (one with experience in this area).
Emphatically agree with Dr Strangelove. Do not attempt a DIY job.
A Solicors engaged also sends a message to the tenant that this is being managed by a professional and thus lessens any chance of arm chancing.
 
aido71 said:
Now i never stressed about this and i know i am so fortunate: i always knew we would get it back someday......we are fortunate that we could carry this financially and did not impact on our lives. But how many others out there suffering both mentally and financially? An absolute disgrace that this is how things are.
So just my experience which I figured would share.
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Thank you for sharing, these stories are very valuable lessons for all landlords.
 
Cruzer123 said:
Hope you get your unpaid rent back. Given they now own a house they have means to pay.
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Not going to waste my time! We could chase them for back rent repair costs etc… spend God knows what win and still never see a penny! We have wasted enough of our time on them… now it’s get the place in order and flog it asap!! Unfortunately a country where even if you have right or even the law on your side still end up losing! Am not bitter no point expending negative energy on that…. We have a lot of equity in it so just going to take that and get on with our lives…. Sure we made mistakes but the whole system laughable…. As I said don’t feel sorry for ourselves as we are fortunate to be in a financial position to weather this but I wonder how many out there truly suffering…. As an aside I travel in Europe a bit for work from Scandinavia to Central Europe and been discussing the rental sectors with colleagues…. Most countries so well regulated with protections for both parties… unfortunately the narrative here remains tenant good landlord bad….. truth good and bad eggs both sides…. Tbh the only people to feel sorry for are the tenants kids… growing up in an environment where entitlement is expected and the norm. I hope we have a done a sufficient job in instilling a decent work ethnic and value system with our sons. Hopefully the future stil bright! Am still an optimist!!!
 
You're actually better off going the mediation route to reach a tribunal quicker. While the ruling in the tribunal is final, it does involve a bit more risk. However, you can start the process again, which may take about the same time as going through adjudication, appealing, and then waiting for a tribunal. Here’s a breakdown of the timelines involved:

Timeline Breakdown​

  1. Rent Arrears Notice:
    • 28 days
  2. Notice of Termination:
    • 28 days
  3. Mediation:
    • You can apply online for mediation, which typically takes a minimum of 6 weeks to schedule and complete.
  4. Adjudication:
    • This process requires you to fill out forms by hand and submit them via post or email (which is quite cumbersome). After submitting, it takes at least 28 days to receive a dispute case reference.
    • Following this, you will wait a minimum of 16 weeks for an adjudication hearing, with results issued 8 weeks after the hearing.
  5. Appeal Process:
    • If the tenant appeals, expect to wait an additional 4 months for a tribunal hearing, followed by another 8 weeks for the result.
  6. Enforcement of Determination Order:
    • If you win in the tribunal, they often allow between 10 to 42 days for the tenant to vacate as per the Determination Order. However, savvy tenants may disregard this order.
    • You would then need to consult your solicitor after the deadline to enforce the Determination Order in District Court, which can take another 4 months to get a hearing.

Total Time Period​

  • Without enforcement: Approximately 12-18 months, assuming everything goes smoothly.
  • With enforcement through District Court: Usually around 2 years, considering potential delays and complications.
During this entire period, no rent is being paid, which means no funds are available to cover mortgage payments. You will likely only incur solicitor fees and potential costs for damages during this time.
 
Sarenco said:
There are certainly issues with the RTB but in this case they were 100% correct in their determination.

A statutory declaration can only be made before a practising solicitor, commissioner for oaths, notary public, peace commissioner or any other person that is authorised by law to administer oaths.

A random Garda is not an officer of the Court and is not authorised to administer oaths.

So, your purported notice of termination was invalid and your tenant was under no legal obligation to quit the property.

I sincerely hope that you secured a letter from your tenant confirming that they are voluntarily quitting the property and are waiving all rights in relation to their tenancy. Otherwise you could well run into issues selling the property.

I appreciate that you have had a bad time of it but the process for terminating a tenancy is set out in legislation - you can’t just make it up.

IMO anybody that is planning to issue a notice of termination would be well advised to consult a solicitor - it is extremely easy for a lay person to make a mistake and the consequences can be material.
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There's been a lot of issues with RTB around evictions that can be not unreasonably dealt with. Part of the issue is that more than a decade ago we changed the rights of owner occupiers in arrears to fairer repossession terms while making no changes at that time for tenants. The result was, when there was a subsequent wave of repossession orders from 2013 to 2015, tenants bore the brunt while those in mortgage arrears were seen to be sitting for years having not paid a cent. And so, not unreasonable, the political pressure increased to change things for tenants. To be fair, at the time, you had situations where new owners sought vacant possession simply on the grounds of sale while others simply took over the tenancies & continued under the original lease terms. The ongoing situations serial landlords in deep financial difficulty also presented perverse incentives to keep rents low to try to cut deals with lenders.

Cut forward a few of years, and the sheer number of evictions of tenants, often because of their landlords inability to cover their borrowings overall, presented a real political challenge. To be fair also, how fair was it when tenants who had done nothing more than pay their rents on time for years, suddenly found themselves presented with an eviction order? This was also against a backdrop of decades of knee-jerk evictions for antisocial behaviour and damage to properties. (I witnessed one in 2004 where the tenant downstairs kicked in not only his own entry doors, but several others also, and tried to gain entry to my flat also - he was given 24hrs to leave, and every other tenant in the house breathed a sigh of relief). But there was also horribly unfair evictions - like a gay friend who was evicted from her flat a couple of years previously simply for having her girlfriend round one night when the landlord called.

So understandably there was pressure for a fairer system. But really, we need a reckoning and widespread information campaign which ensures that landlords correctly serve notice, especially for planning to sell, and proper timelines are adhered to, especially in the newer circumstances where there is a tenant interest in purchasing. RTB already have some pro forma style forms.
The difficulty is often in dealing with covid era evictions and post eviction ban remediation. Perhaps there is a case for a separate service to try to quickly deal with these and include cases where there is a potential AHB purchase under that scheme. It needs more investment of time and money to get to a situation fair for both tenants and landlords. Maybe an FOI about number of outstanding cases and length of time waiting would make sense?

The problem I see here is that long delays coupled with increased opportunity for malignant tenants to exploit the opportunity to stop paying and build up huge arrears they know full well they cannot afford to pay needs to be nipped in the bud. It should go without saying that continued payment of rent in full should be a precondition for tenant challenges to perceived or actual unfair or illegal evictions and that they should automatically void the outstanding RTB challenge in circumstances where they cease payment of rent without acceptable justification (i.e. genuine change of financial circumstances such as loss of employment or social welfare payments). Politically this might be unpalatable but it could be presented as a fairness issue - aka most of these tenants probably think that nobody is going to chase them through the courts for years for unpaid rent, which they would be still obliged to pay if the landlord continued with the RTB case.

Obviously better post case enforcement is an issue too - though I think landlords might also need to accept that this would apply to other requirements such as timely remediation of breaches of minimum standards or failures to maintain property, as well. It needs to be a genuine two way street.
 
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