44% of those with children 'better off on dole'

shnaek said:
Absolutely. The ESRI are another useless quango that should be disbanded immediately.
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totally agree, seems like now they are rowing back on the story, saying its not a report but a 'work in progress' also it turns out the figures they are useing are seven years old!.....and we pay these donkeys.
 
micmclo said:
I believe the State should be stepping in and providing top class services but also ensuring value for money
No wastage with taxpayers money
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Maybe it's because they've never done to before. anywhere. ever. Maybe it's that that's making me cynical.
 
Purple said:
Considering the state the country is in I’d be in favour of cuts to child benefit (and it’s removal from high income families) and large reductions to maternity and parental leave.
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What's your definition of a high income family?
 
Purple said:
Good question but, for example, families with a household income over €200k shouldn't be getting welfare.
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how many families in Ireland with that sort of income and with kids under 16? It'd make a point I suppose to stop payments to families like that, but it'd just be a drop in the ocean of the Social Welfare bill
 
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How about doing something similar to what they are trying in Britain and place a household cap on any sort of welfare benefit that be received e.g. No household should receive more than say 30k from the State including child benefit, medical card, jobseekers, rent allowance etc. (number is plucked from the sky).

I haven't looked at pros and cons by the way. Just throwing it out there.
 
Delboy said:
how many families in Ireland with that sort of income and with kids under 16? It's make a point I suppose to stop payments to families like that, but it'd just be a drop in the ocean of the Social Welfare bill
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I'm not best positioned to say at what level payments should stop, maybe €80'000 is a better level. Maybe existing payments should be taxable. Maybe a refundable tax credit would be best as there would be far less administration involved.
 
Purple said:
Good question but, for example, families with a household income over €200k shouldn't be getting welfare.
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Delboy said:
how many families in Ireland with that sort of income and with kids under 16? It's make a point I suppose to stop payments to families like that, but it'd just be a drop in the ocean of the Social Welfare bill
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Even if you take a lower salary eg 100k, it doesn't necessarily mean the family in question is "better off" than the same size family on 50k because mortgage debt is so significant in Ireland ! The 100k family might be servicing a 300k mortgage with childcare cost on top, whereas the 50k family might have no mortgage and kids in secondary school.
 

Mortgage debts shouldn't come into it. People should not be rewared and subsidised for making poor decisions.
 
For information, here is a link to the Working Paper:

[broken link removed]

Here is the CSO's Household Budget Survey, from whcih the data was drawn:

[broken link removed]
 
I don't know why Tol used the 2004/05 HBS for data, rather than the more recent 2009/10 HBS, see below:

[broken link removed]

I suspect it's because only some data from the 2009/10 HBS has been released so far.
 
Desperation stuff from the ESRI there

What's next, Professor Tol has to go to bed early without his supper if he doesn't "correct" his findings!
 
DB74 said:
Desperation stuff from the ESRI there

What's next, Professor Tol has to go to bed early without his supper if he doesn't "correct" his findings!
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The last thing we need is experts in publically funded bodies giving honest opinions which may influence public debate and government policy. That sort of negativity can make governments unpopular so people like that should go an em, kill demselves.

If that sort of thing was allowed we would have had people from the department of finance telling us our economy was overheated and we had a property bubble and all that, no no no, down with that sort of thing.
 
In all fairness, does anyone think anything will come of this report?

If Professor Tol is totally correct and all his numbers stand up to scrutiny, like most revelations, in about 2 months time there will be something else. Hosehold Tax springs to mind - whilst still an issue with 600,000 houses not paid for, it isn't front page news at the moment either.
 
I thought it was ironic that on the same week it was revealed that the Croke park agreement was issuing savings, a government minister (Varadker) couldn't wait to talk about compulsory redundacies in the public sector. Yet when a report is issued actually criticising the social welfare system, it is just ignored.
 

Yes, the Croke Park agreement has given us savings of €0.5 billion when we are borrowing €15 billion a year. 3.5%. We're saved!
 
Purple said:
Yes, the Croke Park agreement has given us savings of €0.5 billion when we are borrowing €15 billion a year. 3.5%. We're saved!
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How much do you think the social welfare bill is?
Do you think the whole 15 billion is going to come from the CPA?

My point is that this year's report has seen savings that on schedule. Will future year's be the same, possibly not. But the government likes to be seen to talk tough on the public sector. Fair enough , but be consistent.
The social welfare bill is higher but the minister has commited to not cutting rates. So when a report is issued highlighting the anomalus situation regards some families being better off on the dole, it is just basically ignored.
Certainly didn't hear the minister say "Well we may have to revisit our policy of not cutting rates". because it's not popular
 
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