Mary Hanafin and Maths

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redbhoy

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I read on breakingnews.ie that the Minister of Education is asking Universities to reconsider their policies on refusing entry to students who study foundation level Maths.
I think this is a cop-out on her behalf. Should she not be scrutinising the teachers of these students instead?
 
It seems a bit simplistic to just look at the teachers here (although I had a terrible maths teacher myself) , some people are just rubbish at Maths and that's it, but they might excel at something like English etc. If a student wants to go on to do say an arts degree or some other course which doesn't involve figures or calculations etc then I don't think math abilbities should come into it.
 
I would think that a basic level of mathematics (ie pass level in ordinary maths) is a necessity for all 3rd university courses. I don't agree with the idea that someone can be good at some subjects and terrible at others. Granted we all have aptitudes in different areas and we will always be stronger in some subjects than others but if one has the capabilities to achieve the high academic standards required to get into university then they should also have the capabilities to achieve the minimum standard in all matriculation subjects. The ability to study a course and pass an exam is a skill in itself that is secondary to the knowledge gained from the subject matter.... if you know what I mean!!
 
ney001 said:
It seems a bit simplistic to just look at the teachers here (although I had a terrible maths teacher myself) , some people are just rubbish at Maths and that's it, but they might excel at something like English etc. If a student wants to go on to do say an arts degree or some other course which doesn't involve figures or calculations etc then I don't think math abilbities should come into it.
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It's too easy to say that. The fact is there is a basic level of numeracy which everyone should have, akin to literacy. You'd never smile at someone who said they never quite got to grips with reading, would you?

Maths and the use and understanding of figures is highly important. If you spend any time around The Great Financial Debates you'll see plenty of anecdotal evidence suggesting that there are some - maybe quite a few - people out there who are not up to organising their finances or calculating the impact of things like interest rate rises and tax changes on their own situations.

Suggesting that we should let people off just because they might be very good at English is a cop out. Basic maths is a tool for living, just like the ability to read is.
 
Basic maths would surely be foundation maths? - She is not asking them to scrap the need for maths altogether but she is saying that some courses for which maths is not a requirement should accept people who have foundation level maths. And I think there is a bit of difference between not getting to grips with leaving cert maths and not getting to grips with English - English is our spoken language we use it every day. I don't think that people with an aptitude towards English/languages/history etc should have to forfeit their first choice of course because they are not great at maths!. In the long term yes, take a look at the teaching methods etc but the same could be said for a lot of subjects - I also had a brutal Irish teacher :rolleyes:
 
as a pass maths student of the leaving a mere 10 years ago i can say that course has been "dumbed down" since then (a teachers opinion) and now surely should be attainable my the vast majority of students. The foundation seems to be akin to what a high levelprimary 6th class student would come out with - area and volumn, fractions, decimals, etc I would surmise that students poor at maths previously learned off theorms and formulae and passed that way.
There is no point in making the move suggested because these students will more than likely not be able to grasp basic's in business, science, arts (grammer rules being akin to calculus for most anyhow) anyhow.
I think she should put the resourses into evaluating and mentoring teachers so that they can reach their potential as well as students they teach. I know a fair few peeved teachers my age who did a dip and were thrown into a class with a textbook and very lttle support. They will tell you some classes they teach are solely for the money and not the love of the job.
 
I definitely think Foundation Maths should be considered for some college courses. I myself did Ordinary level maths and went did Computer Science degree, found my level of maths made no difference in my ability to learn. My brother who will be taking the Leaving Cert next year struggles to get a pass in Ordinary Level maths but yet gets A's in English, Economics and Business Studies (higher level). He wants to do a business course in college, on the basis that he passes the dreaded maths exam.

I think its unfair for 'business' based courses that don't involve a high level of numeracy/accounting skills to require Ordinary level maths.
 
I can understand that people have different strengths and weaknesses in school but IMO if that many people are failing to get a D in pass maths, there is something wrong with the way it is been taught in alot of places. Not saying this is the fault of teachers. Maybe kids just need to be shown how relevant maths is in eveyday use and curiculum could be designed as such. There has to be a basic understanding of the subject because no matter what you go on and do in your life, both personal and professional, you will need maths.

From a broader prespective, Ireland has built up a reputation over the last decade or two of producing highly educated young people. Anything that leads to a "dumbing down" for want of a better phrase is not something that I would welcome.
 
Got my LC results yesterday :), and whilst Maths turned out great for me; I know many people who are now restricted from college courses because of the requirement. For example, some people who should have sat foundation maths decided to sit the ordinary paper because they wanted to go to college... then they failed the paper, so have no choice but to repeat.

I would hate to see college entry standards eroded by completely scarpping the maths requirement. Maths is a fundamentally important subject - perhaps one of the most practical significant subjects thaught in modern (supposedly) hi-tech Ireland; however a student hopeing to do a degree in say fine arts or history should not be stopped because maths is not their strong point. Courses with certain mathamatical areas should retain the min. requirements (or even increase them), however those degrees without a strong need for maths should drop the requirement totally.

In addition, I strongly believe far more should be done to improve the teaching of maths. Honors maths is a monstrous course that devours time and energy (I sat 8 subjects for the LC, yet spent at least 70% of my study time on Maths!... and it still was'nt my top result) The standard of teaching is not consistant and many students have to get grinds to achieve their dream results. However, I would'nt just blame all the teachers, our teacher was'nt particularly good, but he did his best for us and made up for it in energy and drive.

It might sound too radical, but I think that maths should be split into 2 seperate subjects, broadly on the lines of the current paper 1 and paper 2. This would make Maths a far more attractive subject to students, teaching time could be doubled, ceratin areas could be dealt with in greater detail, Irish maths ability could improve dramatically and students who invest the enoromous amount of time and energy necessary in Honors maths would be properly rewarded in the points system.
 
Education should teach us how to think. If you are innumerate, you are lacking the ability to think in certain vital areas.

I agree that higher maths is timing consuming. Maths was not my favourite so I did ordinary level. That option is open to everyone. Foundation maths is extremely basic indeed and while it may provide useful skills in everyday situations (like working out your change, or doing basic budgets) it is simply not challenging enough in terms of stretching those logic muscles that you need in any sort of academic endeavour.
 
I wouldn't make maths a matriculation requirement for courses with
no mathematical component such as languages but for every other
degree level course at least a D in ordinary isn't unreasonable.

For science, engineering, economics a C or above in higher level and
for mathematics itself and very mathematical courses like theoretical
physics require at least a B. I think that's already the case.

Give extra points to higher maths, to encourage able students to take it
but only where it's relevant to the degree. Don't reduce the higher syllabus
content any more than it has been already (it was last done in 1997) or
the colleges will have to give remedial classes to get students up to international
freshman year standards.

Anyone that likes physics and maths should also take higher level applied maths
if at all possible as it's a relatively easy course and a good way of getting points
It's about understanding rather than learning by rote. It will put these students
at an advantage in first year mechanics.
 
GeneralZod said:
For science, engineering, economics a C or above in higher level and
for mathematics itself and very mathematical courses like theoretical
physics require at least a B. I think that's already the case.

.
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A B for engineering would probably be in order too..
 
jdwex said:
A B for engineering would probably be in order too..
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I think that's requiring too much of your average engineer. :) Engineering maths is
a lot easier than pure maths. We need to get more people into science and engineering
so the barriers shouldn't be that high.

Most engineers and soft (i.e. non-physical) scientists will not go on to need advanced
applied mathematics in their jobs or they can pick areas that don't need it as much
after they get in.

e.g. Computer Science/Applications
 
GeneralZod said:
Are you suggesting they've dumbed down the questions as well as the size of the course?
My understanding is they only did the latter.
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When I was in school 20+ years ago, you would need to be looking at a b+ to be encouraged to do engineering.
From talking to engineering lecturers I know, they are concerned with leaving cert student's standard of maths . So maybe Computer Apps or technology or life sciences, not hard engineering. Engineers woulkd certainly need a higher standard of math, than say, your average accountant. BTw are you an engineer?
 
Engineering apart i was in a bar yesterday watching the football and this thread came to mind.
We got charged for a pint bulmers instead of a pint of beer, the difference was 4.75 v's 3.95, so i copped it and pointed it out to the bar person (whom i overheard was going back to college soon) and she took a moment before coming back with 1.25e refund - it took a further minute to explain the difference was infact ony .80c.
Hubbie and I discussed the issue at half time and we both came to the comclusion that there has to be a basic level of "sums" and "reckoning" for 99% of jobs never mind the course that leads to the job.
Dumbing down the course and then lowering the bar serves nobody in the long run.
 
I think the standard of teaching is a big issue. Many teachers teaching maths do not have a maths degree. For example a teacher who got an ordinary level BSc in biology can teach maths in secondary school to junior cert ordinary level and leaving cert ordinary level. I think an honours level degree in maths or the physical sciences is required to teach higher level maths, physics and chemistry. So the standard of teachers teaching at higher level is alot better than at ordinary level. This was a key recomendation from the 2002 task force on the physical sciences. It wanted a quota set aside on the HDip courses in teaching for physical science and maths grads
 
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