Lyra McKee

[Conan]

Watching the Priest at Lyra’s funeral challenge the political leaders in the North it was sad to see Arlene Foster and Mary Lou reluctant to stand when the audience gave the Priest a standing ovation. And worse to see Arlene refuse to join-in the round of applause. They both looked slightly (but only slightly) embarrassed.

 

[Folsom]

I only saw clips of the funeral so wont comment on what you saw. But understandable as it is to shoulder some responsibility on Arlene and Mary Lou, I do think the whole political establishment across Ireland and Britain needs to re-focus and re-engage.
There are, as I see it, two intractable sides to this. The first is the preservation and progression of Northern Ireland into a normal, non-sectarian, civilized society where people, families, communities go about their business without the baggage of flag-waving and the rest?
One hundred years into its existence it has failed dismally.
The other side is the push for a 'United' Ireland. I put the word united in commas as a point in question -
what does it mean? An 32-county republic? Is that a socialist republic, or a laissez faire free market republic?
Or a normal, non-sectarian, civilized society where people, families, communities go about their business without the baggage of flag-waving and the rest?

How to decide, the answer seems obvious? Drop the flags, the tribalism and get on with the business of ordinary lives.

Not so simple. The truth is, and focusing only on the recent 'Troubles', the legacy of sectarian murders, "tit-for-tat", collusion, assassination, shoot-to-kill, the disappeared, state cover-ups, internment, torture of suspected terrorists, torture of suspected informers, indiscriminate bombing, indiscriminate shooting and on, and on...has left open wounds too deep. So deep in fact, that comments, including my own, to drop the flag-waving are actually patronising and devoid of any empathy of the real hurt endured by communities in the north and the all too tragic manifestation of that hurt into exacting revenge and its subsequent dire consequences.

Much has been done since GFA 21yrs ago. Credit must be attributed to politicians that took risks for peace. Much more needs to be done. Trying to cajole Mary Lou and Arlene into re-starting power sharing for the sake of Lyra McKee wont work. And having listened briefly to Lyra McKee on a podcast, I suspect that a return to the status quo of Stormont power-sharing under GFA would have given her some hope in the present but little cause for prospects in the future.
Lyra McKee once said that she didn't want a closer union with the rest of Britain, nor did she want a United Ireland - she simply wanted a better life!
She wanted to go about her business in a normal, non-sectarian, civilized society.

The GFA should now be seen, ableit as yet unfulfilled, as a stepping stone to Irish freedom - not a 32 Irish republic, but a stepping stone to the freedom of all people in Ireland away from its historic conflicts.
We deserve better, we deserve to treat each other better, and the entire political class of Britain and Ireland needs to rise up to that cause - flag or no flag.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

There is no doubt that NI is more sectarian than ever. The example of Simon Varadkar rising to the SF bait and making Brexit a sectarian red liner hasn’t helped but that is covered in another forum.

The Priest was way out of line in making such a political rebuke of politicians attending a funeral. For said politicians to have jumped up and enthusiastically clapped the rebuke would have been a cringe making hypocrisy. The political void at Stormont was in no way responsible for this killing. Dissidents hate political accommodation. We should also note that the rate of innocent victims of criminal gangs is at least as high in the normal civilized South as it is in the North.

Whilst I welcome most of the sentiment of Folsom’s post it really sticks in my craw the (SF) narrative that there were three of them in it, the IRA, the Loyalists and the Brits.

As a final point on this subject. The revolting apology by the New IRA followed by putting the blame on British oppression has been roundly rejected by nearly everyone including the good people of Derry. Yet this was routine copy for the Old IRA over more than 25 years. But their exploits are now the subject of almost weekly commemoration by the leaders of SF. The New IRA are no worse than the Old IRA, just have less support.

 

[Purple]

The example of Simon Varadkar rising to the SF bait and making Brexit a sectarian red liner hasn’t helped but that is covered in another forum.

That's complete nonsense. Free trade with the UK (East West) is what the backstop is all about and you know it.

As a final point on this subject. The revolting apology by the New IRA followed by putting the blame on British oppression has been roundly rejected by nearly everyone including the good people of Derry. Yet this was routine copy for the Old IRA over more than 25 years. But their exploits are now the subject of almost weekly commemoration by the leaders of SF. The New IRA are no worse than the Old IRA, just have less support.

On that I completely agree. The New IRA hadn't blown up any children yet therefore so far they are not as bad as the Provisional IRA or their remaining political wing.

 

[Purple]

To me Lyra McKee represented the very best of what it is to be Irish in the modern world. She wasn't religious. She wasn't sectarian. She wasn't Nationalist or Republican or Unionist. She was interested in helping people, in equality, in fighting injustice, in calling out bigotry and hypocrisy. She was compassionate and passionate, loved and respected, dedicated and brave.
I tuned on the radio on Sunday morning and heard a woman speaking. I was hooked. She was great. I though, "wow, who's she?" Then I heard it was a recording of Lyra and it hit me that her voice was silenced forever. How many more voices will be silenced before reason and moderation replace tribalism and bigotry?

 

[Firefly]

Great post there Folsom

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

That's complete nonsense. Free trade with the UK (East West) is what the backstop is all about and you know it.

Let's not go too far off topic but I am tired hearing the Backstop being linked with the GFI. So far as I am aware the GFI was not registered with the WTO as a free trade agreement.

 

[Folsom]

There is no doubt that NI is more sectarian than ever.

That is subjective. I think perhaps, in times of relative peace the extent and breadth of the prevailing sectarianism is now open for everyone to see.
During 'the Troubles' I was brought up to believe it was only the hardened crackpots on either side that were involved.
Its clear this was false.

The example of Simon Varadkar rising to the SF bait and making Brexit a sectarian red liner hasn’t helped but that is covered in another forum.

I couldn't agree with that sentiment. I think any Taoiseach will duly raise the concern of a prospective return to a border in Ireland.

The political void at Stormont was in no way responsible for this killing

Not directly, but the political void feeds into the dissident narrative that power sharing and political accommodation is only a sticking plaster and that ultimately it wont work.

Dissidents hate political accommodation.

Exactly. Because the longer it prevails the more embedded it becomes, isolating and diminishing their narrative. Meaning, the political void at Stormont is, indirectly, responsible for this killing.

We should also note that the rate of innocent victims of criminal gangs is at least as high in the normal civilized South as it is in the North.

Very good point, and feeds into the outlook of Lyra McKee wanting a better life. By that, she meant a society with access to education, healthcare, employment prospects, non-discrimination.
When individuals (or even entire communities) feel disgruntled it is not unsurprising that over time, young people will fall into the circles of criminal activity.

it really sticks in my craw the (SF) narrative that there were three of them in it, the IRA, the Loyalists and the Brits.

I think there are more than three actors. I think the entire political class across both islands, to lesser and greater degrees, need to step up.
I don't buy into fake outrage over SF not taking seats in Westminster from political parties who actively abstain from Westminster elections in Northern Ireland.

I was heartened to see Teresa May attending Lyra McKees funeral, I think that showed real leadership. It was completely at odds with the next potential PM, Boris Johnson, who was lauding over the arrest of journalist Julian Assange in London but was mute with regard to the murder of a journalist on streets of UK in Derry.
The socio-economic issues and sectarian divisions in Northern Ireland are not matters for SF/DUP, or republican/loyalist alone. They are broader and deeper than that. They are for all of Britain and Ireland.
Personally I think NI is a failed state (in societal terms).
It hasnt worked in one hundred years and I dont think it has any prospect of working long-term.
I come from a background of supporting a 32 county socialist Irish republic, but I also have to accept now that such a prospect is no longer attainable without further violent conflict - to which I am vehemently opposed.

A new political arrangement, encompassing compromise across Britain and Ireland is required;

- a return to British commonwealth under an All-Ireland parliament?
- An All-Ireland Senate encompassing the affairs and participation of Stormont and Leinster Hse under the British Crown?
- Grassroots, non-sectarian All-Ireland and British political activism?
- Political party re-alignment, between North and South, East and West?

The discussions have to start, somewhere. Keeping the status quo of a Nationalist/Unionist divide in NI, and hoping they will all get along, is futile, is political abandonment, is political cowardice and political failure.

 

[Folsom]

Let's not go too far off topic but I am tired hearing the Backstop being linked with the GFI. So far as I am aware the GFI was not registered with the WTO as a free trade agreement.

Agreed, lets not go off topic. But one reason GFA(?) was not registered as free trade was because it involved two jurisdictions that were already registered as free trade under the EU.

 

[Purple]

I come from a background of supporting a 32 county socialist Irish republic

The phrase "32 county socialist Irish republic" scares the bejesus out of me. The 32 county part isn't the scary bit.

 

[Folsom]

The phrase "32 county socialist Irish republic" scares the bejesus out of me. The 32 county part isn't the scary bit.

That is fair enough, and for others it is the '32 county republic' , others again it is being recognised as 'Irish' just as others cannot fathom being described as 'British'.
All of this is what needs to be discussed, tackled and to banish fears of one or another.
And it needs to be done between Ireland and Britain - the six counties are centre of gravity for all of this.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

You speak much sense there Folsom. I think blaming political leadership is somewhat hypocritical of society. To be sure the political leadership in NI is sadly lacking. But for the Priest to get a standing ovation for ticking them off stands in stark contradiction to the fact that if there was an election tomorrow the same applauding crowd would probably give an even bigger mandate to the parties in the North least likely to compromise. That is one of the huge paradoxes. In the dark old days of the 1960s mainsteam politics in NI was the monopoly of "sensible" people on both sides, the Nationalists and the Unionists. No sight of SF/IRA or the Paisleyites. Now 21 years after the historic "peace" settlement politics is dominated by SF/IRA and the Paisleyites.

They say the recent talks broke down because in particular the DUP were unable to compromise. In fact the political leadership of the DUP were prepared to compromise, it was the backlash from the grass roots that scuppered the deal. Likewise SF had talked themselves into red lines on the Irish Language Act which made them hostages of their political base.

In short it is Northern society which is to blame for the mess it's in. In a democracy the political leaders are merely those chosen by the electorate to carry out its wishes. Its wishes on both sides of Northern society are for No Surrender.

 

[cremeegg]

In the dark old days of the 1960s mainsteam politics in NI was the monopoly of "sensible" people on both sides, the Nationalists and the Unionists. No sight of SF/IRA or the Paisleyites. Now 21 years after the historic "peace" settlement politics is dominated by SF/IRA and the Paisleyites.

Careful there Duke. You may find yourself quoted in support of the argument that the progress made in NI in the last 50 years was down to the emergence of "SF/IRA or the Paisleyites"

 

[Betsy Og]

The only way to break the deadlock is to "put manners" on the DUP and SF by voting for moderate parties. You can't go to a vigil for Lyra, say its awful they won't get on and show leadership and then vote for SF or the DUP.

Is the New IRA as bad as the old - I suppose the distinction (highly debatable I know) is that there wasn't the agreed basis for progress when the IRA was at play (they were a lot of the cause of that of course). So the argument runs that after 20 years of peace, equal rights (more or less), no visible army, an acceptable-ish police force, a local parliment (if they'd work it) and the clear means to a United Ireland (border poll) there is no justification at all at all for 'armed struggle/murder'.

I think the Priest was well within his rights the draw attention to the political failings that leave the door open to extremists. I can't fault Leo for trying to avoid a hard border, he was acting in the best interests of the 32, the DUP weren't acting in the best interests of 6, or 1, or even their own supporters. So they deserve a sound thrashing, whether people will vote UUP instead is all we can hope for.

If I was in the North I think I'd vote Alliance. Re a 32 county arrangement, I'd be of the view that they can join us if they want (gulp) but given Brexit and all that muck I don't see us getting any cosier with England - no problem having enhanced co-operation with an independent Scotland if that would make people feel better, but the future is Europe. Would be open to changing the flag and anthem. Overall I think joining the South should be a good thing for all communities in that, for all our many faults, the South is about normal life, no flag waving. The South is no threat to the day to day lives of Unionists - I'm sure they'd be left have a British passport if they want, we'd give them an exemption from learning Irish (I'd use it as the excuse to get religion totally out of education North and South, no State funding unless de-labelled and min cross-community attendance appropriate to the area - maybe they'd see that as an attack but it would be an 'attack' on all religion with the justification of if you don't know your neighbours how is society ever going to normalise).

I don't know what role is left for SF, they're out lefted by the Slogans before Reality crowd, they haven't shown the political maturity to actually get into government and make a few tough decisions. The flag waving stuff is wearing thin. They'll definitely have to move on from trying to get us to say the IRA were the continuation of the 1920's, it was a war, they were soldiers etc. etc. - I can't be putting up with that rameis.

 

[Duke of Marmalade]

Careful there Duke. You may find yourself quoted in support of the argument that the progress made in NI in the last 50 years was down to the emergence of "SF/IRA or the Paisleyites"

Good riposte I don't quite know how to answer it. My usual answer is that the benefits of the GFA were on the table in 1974 (Sunningdale etc.) and while IRA violence but most immediately the reaction of the Stormont regime (Bloody Sunday) brought about that advance, the next 25 years of IRA violence in search of a socialist 32 county republic and the Loyalist counter violence are devoid of any justification, moral or otherwise.

 

[Ceist Beag]

The only way to break the deadlock is to "put manners" on the DUP and SF by voting for moderate parties. You can't go to a vigil for Lyra, say its awful they won't get on and show leadership and then vote for SF or the DUP.

Isn't the problem though that the electorate still see themselves as one side or the other and neither side trusts the other. Those voting SF are often doing it to dilute the strength of the DUP - believing that it gives "their side" a stronger hand than say a vote for Alliance would. e.g. "If we vote Alliance them uns will still vote DUP and then where will we be" and vice versa. Until the electorate no longer see themselves as being on one side I don't see that changing.

 

[Folsom]

I do think all parties across the political spectrum need to re-engage. The GFA has achieved many positive things, but I do think it is overly subscribed as far as it being the bedrock upon which all problems will be resolved.
It clearly isnt.
The political stalemate and the emergence of a 'new' IRA should waken everyone up. It is futile and politically irresponsible to expect SF/DUP to suddenly agree on matters.
The North/South Ministerial Council and the British-Irish Council need to centre stage in the absence of a functioning executive. If only to map out a political process where the current impass can be by-passed without any party losing face.

 

[cremeegg]

I'd use it as the excuse to get religion totally out of education North and South, no State funding unless de-labelled and min cross-community attendance appropriate to the area - maybe they'd see that as an attack but it would be an 'attack' on all religion with the justification of if you don't know your neighbours how is society ever going to normalise).

I agree with the idea of removing religion from education.

However, Protestant kids in NI mostly go to state schools, Catholic kids go to Catholic schools.

Removing religion from education is seen by Catholics and the broader Green community (I disagree with describing them as nationalist) as an attempt at diluting or removing their identity. And perhaps not without reason.

 

[Purple]

I agree with the idea of removing religion from education.

However, Protestant kids in NI mostly go to state schools, Catholic kids go to Catholic schools.

Removing religion from education is seen by Catholics and the broader Green community (I disagree with describing them as nationalist) as an attempt at diluting or removing their identity. And perhaps not without reason.

John Fitzgerald has an excellent piece on the lamentable state of Northern Ireland's education system in today's Irish Times.

 

[Folsom]

All-party talks announced

https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0426/1045796-north-government-meeting/