why not a state of israel/palestine - sorted but see robert fisk

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NOAH

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It appals me the way the crisis in the middle east has gone on for 60 years and the most annoying thing is the media reporting of it and the language used. When hamas fire a rocket its reported as " a rocket" but when the other side reply it referred to as a "strike" no mention that it is a usa top of the range jet, usa bombs etc. Then ABC NEWS will report " a rocket killed one Israeli citizen" but then it will go on say " under the the right to defend itself Israel bombed gazza" but conveniently omits the number of casualties.

What I am trying to get over is Who do they think they are fooling? usa/israel want a platform in the middle east and the article today by robert fisk sums it up nicely. I just wish they would accept in this day and age that the people can live together and create a state israel/palestine and then they could call it a real democracy.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/c...ars-of-other-middle-east-cliches-3297149.html
 
NOAH said:
It appals me the way the crisis in the middle east has gone on for 60 years and the most annoying thing is the media reporting of it and the language used. When hamas fire a rocket its reported as " a rocket" but when the other side reply it referred to as a "strike" no mention that it is a usa top of the range jet, usa bombs etc. Then ABC NEWS will report " a rocket killed one Israeli citizen" but then it will go on say " under the the right to defend itself Israel bombed gazza" but conveniently omits the number of casualties.

What I am trying to get over is Who do they think they are fooling? usa/israel want a platform in the middle east and the article today by robert fisk sums it up nicely. I just wish they would accept in this day and age that the people can live together and create a state israel/palestine and then they could call it a real democracy.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/c...ars-of-other-middle-east-cliches-3297149.html
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I agree, but with one caveat. Depending on which side you come down on in this debate, and I'm somewhere in the middle, favouring a two-state solution, people claim media bias.

I've seen the left complain about the media being biassed to Israel and I've seen the right complain it is biassed to Palestine. I think they're right in both cases, it just depends on which one you watch.

To me it is more a marker of how the media's obsession with taking a side and speaking to a "demographic" is harmful. It's also a marker that their obsession with only portraying the two extreme views on any topic in order to pretend they are giving fair coverage isn't just harmful to a reasoned discussion but to actual people.

It simply isn't true that everyone in Israel supports the hardlined stance of its government (in the same way we don't) or that everyone from Palestine is on the verge of being a suicide bomber intent on the destruction of Israel. Yet the media only allows the extreme voices to be heard just to appease, not the viewers, readers, etc, but their funders and advertisers.

If we learned one thing from the recent US Election, it's that this Christian Right Conservative the Republican party and its supporting media thought existed in great numbers actually didn't. But we also learned that the liberal medai helped fuel this impression of a whole country full of these dangerous extreme views. Turns out, most voters were moderate and reasonable and many held criticism of Obama, but weren't happy with the extreme view that was the alternative.

I know I digressed a bit, but I don't feel any media source actually portrays what is the view and opinion of the majority, it just wants viewers or readers and extreme views get this.

Sadly, until someone can explain to those who unconditionally support Israel that this really isn't the view of the majority, it will always be allowed (and yes I do agree a state has the righ to defend itself) to fight fire with the thermonuclear option. And until the left accepts the role of the likes of Hammas in holding back the people of Palestine for its own agenda through terrorism, they'll always be affected.
 
NOAH said:
It appals me the way the crisis in the middle east has gone on for 60 years and the most annoying thing is the media reporting of it and the language used. When hamas fire a rocket its reported as " a rocket" but when the other side reply it referred to as a "strike" no mention that it is a usa top of the range jet, usa bombs etc. Then ABC NEWS will report " a rocket killed one Israeli citizen" but then it will go on say " under the the right to defend itself Israel bombed gazza" but conveniently omits the number of casualties.

What I am trying to get over is Who do they think they are fooling? usa/israel want a platform in the middle east and the article today by robert fisk sums it up nicely. I just wish they would accept in this day and age that the people can live together and create a state israel/palestine and then they could call it a real democracy.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/c...ars-of-other-middle-east-cliches-3297149.html
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Don't forget the value of jewish voters in the U.S.

An administration reigning in Israel would be political suicide. It's easier a few more "terrorists" die in the name of self defence.
 
thanks both. I reckon israel are signing their own death warrant, those pictures last night were pretty appalling. And I dont think they are doing themselves any favours by showing those video shots knocking out ..... a radio station aerial. No defences to contend with, how brave. And yes its more and more obvious USA are pampering for votes as the phrase " USA supports israel" leaves out the palestinians deliberately.

I'd say the internet and the media will finally get a result, ala apartheid, keep the pressure on.

What amazes me is israel has all this technology drones etc and they still cant isolate a rocket launcher!!!! pull the other one. They want gaza and this is a sure way of getting it quickly, ie bomb them out of existence. It may end up a Pyrrhic victory.
 
NOAH said:
thanks both. I reckon israel are signing their own death warrant, those pictures last night were pretty appalling. And I dont think they are doing themselves any favours by showing those video shots knocking out ..... a radio station aerial. No defences to contend with, how brave. And yes its more and more obvious USA are pampering for votes as the phrase " USA supports israel" leaves out the palestinians deliberately.

I'd say the internet and the media will finally get a result, ala apartheid, keep the pressure on.

What amazes me is israel has all this technology drones etc and they still cant isolate a rocket launcher!!!! pull the other one. They want gaza and this is a sure way of getting it quickly, ie bomb them out of existence. It may end up a Pyrrhic victory.
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If Israel wanted Gaza wiped out they have the firepower to do it over the weekend.
They don't want Gaza, they just don't want to be attacked by Gaza.
I am a supporter of Israel. I find the anti-Israeli bias in some of the Irish media (some RET people and the Irish Times as a whole) to be appalling and sometimes verges into downright anti-Semitism.
The biggest enemy the people of Gaza have is their leadership. When a extremist terrorist organisation takes over a state (or pseudo-state) they cannot expect their neighbours to be happy about it. When that terrorist organisation fires thousands of rockets into a neighbouring state they cannot expect that neighbour not to react.
Israel has tried on numerous occasions to find a solution to the problem of Gaza but the people of Gaza have been betrayed by their leaders again and again.
That’s not to say that Israel is blameless; their reaction has often been disproportionate, they are continuing to allow settlements in occupied territories and their extremist parties are gaining support. There is plenty of blame to go around. What I keep coming back to is that Israel is the only democracy in the middle east, they have over a million Palestinian citizens who enjoy better treatment than Palestinians in any neighbouring country and that the Palestinian people are used cynically as a tool by the Arab League to garner support amongst Western countries for their opposition to Israel. The last thing they want is a peaceful resolution. They love seeing Jewish bombs falling on Gaza.

I find the support for Hamas by the liberal left in Ireland very ironic. I remember the Labour Party’s lesbian, gay, bi and transgender group marching in support of the flotilla seeking to break the Israeli naval blockade of Gaza. The marchers were holding Hamas flags. It didn’t seem to occur to them that every one of them would be murdered by Hamas if they got the chance.
 
We've agreed on this issue in the past Purple and I don't find fault with what you've said...to much.

First, I do think the anti-Semitism tag is thrown around too easily as is a racism accusation, etc, etc. Criticism and even abject disagreement with a state's policy is not anti-Semitism. Yes the left leaning media does tend to focus on the bad stuff Israel has done, but the key is: the did them! Sure it could be more balanced and include more of the provocation that led to that situation, but they still did it. I personally just don't see anti-Semitism, unbalanced criticism yes, but they're not the same.

My view more and more is that while Israel is technically correct in its response, I don't think it is morally correct. Just as the extreme political agenda in neighbouring areas want to maintain power by using Israel as a threat, so the extreme political agenda of Israel's politicians wish to maintain power by using the external threat to Israel. There's no incentive on either side to seek a resolution.

Israel could wipe out Gaza as you say, it has that threat, but to me that means it has a greater moral obligation to seek peace and a resolution. I'm not saying it hasn't, I'm not saying it doesn't, but my own view is, as the richer and more powerful state, should be more active in reaching peace.

As I said, technically, they don't have to. Technically they are in the right as a Sovereign state to respond to the attacks and provocation. But sometimes pride has to be put aside for the greater good. The extremes will lose power pretty quickly if they did that, they still try to cling on to power, but the majority will see the greater good and the extremes will end up as a fringe with minimal support.

(that last bit should be read with John Lennon's Imagine running in the background)
 
Purple said:
I am a supporter of Israel. I find the anti-Israeli bias in some of the Irish media (some RET people and the Irish Times as a whole) to be appalling and sometimes verges into downright anti-Semitism.
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Agree completely,if you even voice an opinion in support of Israel stance you are looked at in askance by liberal "right on" types who make me sick at the best of times but when they start running their traps on this subject it just makes me see red.

Most of them are antisemitic but are too PC to even contemplate the fact they harbour such prejudices or that such prejudices inform where they stand on the issue.
 
Knuttell said:
Agree completely,if you even voice an opinion in support of Israel stance you are looked at in askance by liberal "right on" types who make me sick at the best of times but when they start running their traps on this subject it just makes me see red.

Most of them are antisemitic but are too PC to even contemplate the fact they harbour such prejudices or that such prejudices inform where they stand on the issue.
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Give me an example of where, in the media, one commentator who has criticised Israel has made an anti-semitic statement. Noting that it would have to demonstrate a hatred of the Jewish religion and Jewish culture and not just the state of Israel.

Of course, we should also include those Jewish people who also criticise Israel. But then they're probably just self-hating or something equally glib.

The irony of this accusation is that in the states, predominantly the more conservative commentators raise (in my opinion) genuine questions as to why culturally black and hispanic cultures do not generally encourage or support education in their families. Some blame poverty etc, but then this is countered by other cultures, Asian, Oriental, etc, where they too live in relative poverty in the US but still put an emphasis on education.

Of course, the liberals accuse those commentators of being racist and continuing the oppression and poverty (as that's the only thing to blame right?). And that accusation ends the debate and we're left back at square one without any help. The conservatives rightly complain that these accusations are thrown around too easily and incorrectly. Then they do the same when someone questions a state. Not a religion. Not a people. A state.

But anyway, I'd like to see these anti-semitic comments made in the media that specifically show hatred of the jewish faith and those who follow that faith, outside from the crazy nut Islamic "leaders" that is.
 
Latrade said:
Give me an example of where, in the media, one commentator who has criticised Israel has made an anti-semitic statement. Noting that it would have to demonstrate a hatred of the Jewish religion and Jewish culture and not just the state of Israel.
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It wasn't in the media but Senator Terry Leyden (FF) said that Alan Shatter held undue influence over the government and it's policy on Israel because he is Jewish.
 
Purple said:
It wasn't in the media but Senator Terry Leyden (FF) said that Alan Shatter held undue influence over the government and it's policy on Israel because he is Jewish.
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But I wouldn't say that is anti-semitism, if untrue, just stupidity. He's not denying the Holocaust, he's calling for the extinction of the Jewish race.
 
Purple said:
I find the support for Hamas by the liberal left in Ireland very ironic. I remember the Labour Party’s lesbian, gay, bi and transgender group marching in support of the flotilla seeking to break the Israeli naval blockade of Gaza. The marchers were holding Hamas flags. It didn’t seem to occur to them that every one of them would be murdered by Hamas if they got the chance.
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Turkeys voting for Christmas.:)

Just empty headed half wits following in the wake of what they perceive to be this months fashionable cause célèbre.
 
Purple said:
That's not what anti-Semitism is.
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Ok, let's use a more generic prejudice against the Jewish faith. Israel isn't totally Jewish, so criticising Israel isn't anti-Semitic.

The comment you referenced does not speak negatively of Judasim, it doesn't provide any negative Jewish stereotypes, it just says (whether with knowledge or not) that he was applying influence based on his religion.

If I were to criticise Gay Mitchell for previously having undue influence on policy because of his Catholic faith, that doesn't mean I'm anti Catholic or prejudicing catholics.
 
Latrade said:
Ok, let's use a more generic prejudice against the Jewish faith. Israel isn't totally Jewish, so criticising Israel isn't anti-Semitic.

The comment you referenced does not speak negatively of Judasim, it doesn't provide any negative Jewish stereotypes, it just says (whether with knowledge or not) that he was applying influence based on his religion.

If I were to criticise Gay Mitchell for previously having undue influence on policy because of his Catholic faith, that doesn't mean I'm anti Catholic or prejudicing catholics.
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If he was the only Catholic in the government it might.
"Jewish" is a faith and a ethnicity.
 
Purple said:
If he was the only Catholic in the government it might.
"Jewish" is a faith and a ethnicity.
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Even if he was the only Catholic in the country it still wouldn't mean I was anti-catholic, it would mean I objected to anyone influencing government on the grounds of religion. Criticism, is not anywhere near prejudice or hatred.

I passionately hate it when the left resort to those accusations and I feel just as strongly when it is the right resorting to those accusations. Unless there is a statement that is clearly prejudicial on the grounds of their ethnicity or religion, then it isn't anti-semitism.

And I totally agree with you that the majority of the criticism in unfairly weighted against Israel, I agree that many do not seem to have even the simplest notion or full understanding of the history or current situation and I agree it is bizarre that a lot of people are prepared to ignore a lot of the human rights they value highly when it comes to supporting an extreme group just because it is opposed to a state you dislike. I agree with all of that, I just don't think it is anti-semitism.
 
Latrade said:
I agree with all of that, I just don't think it is anti-semitism.
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Fair enough. I said that it bordered on anti-Semitism, I'd also be slow to openly accuse someone of blatant anti-semitism.
I just struggle to see what other motivation people can have for such one-eyed views.
I presume the same people are fully aware of all the Palestinian that the Jordanians have killed. I presume they are out protesting against the Syrians and are just as upset about those 40'000 dead (and are marching in support of the work the Americans are doing there).
 
well well palestine gets the nod from the UN and.... Israel says..... we are building 3000 more homes on occupied land , you could not make it up. And then they wonder why they are hated so much!!
 
Purple said:
Obama doesn't get the vast majority of the Jewish vote in America.
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True, the Jewish do not vote straight down the line Republican / democrat; but it would still be political suicide to either party if they were to make protest Israels methods of occupation and treatment of Palestinians.
 
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