Croke Park agreement: Invoke clause 1.28. (IT Opinion Article Eddie Molloy)

[Deiseblue]

so,lets say the HSE is chosen by the Govt....will the local Mgmt be allowed tap specific employees on the shoulder and say your time is up?
Or are you saying anyone in the HSE will be allowed go if they volunteer to do so?

It sounds to me exactly the same as the voluntary redundancy scheme currently rolled out by the Bank of Ireland.

The Bank decide what categories of staff/departments are in scope & hope to achieve the required target figures from that category.

In other words although they cannot target individuals they can target departments/ branches that they want to trim & hope that they can achieve the voluntary redundancies they require from those areas.

I have no idea where the latest PS proposed scheme is being aimed at but I can unequivocally say that it will be voluntary & people will not be tapped on the shoulder - compulsory redundancies are excluded under the CPA.

 

[Shawady]

There are several areas that could be looked at without targeting core pay.

A two or three year freeze on increments does not seem unreasonable and to be honest I was surprised this was not looked at before from the unions in exchange for a smaller pay cut.

The bill for allowances is supposed to be 1.5 billion. These could be looked at by an independent body to see which are justified. i've no doubt some are but I'm sure there are others, particularly in the teaching and garda end of things that are not justified.

The overtime bill is supposed to be similar to the allowance bill. Again I can see how overtime is justifed in some areas like garda operations but it should be critically examined across the public sector to see if some of the overtime work can be done in normal hours. Is there work being held off until the weekend so someone can come in and claim a few hours overtime? This would require PS managers to do there job.

 

[Purple]

But as you have pointed out yourself - PS workers have suffered enough pay cuts - now is the time for job cuts - unless my memory fails me ?

10,000 further voluntary redundancies must surely please you ?

This isn’t about relative suffering or punishment and I would never take pleasure in people losing their job.
This is about what the state can afford to pay for services and maximising the services it can deliver to the public for that money. It is obvious that the state’s primary goal should be the quality and breath of those services and so it should seek to deliver them at the minimum possible cost. As wages are by far the biggest input cost these should be the number one item that is targeted to be kept to a minimum.
Since I made the comments that you refer to there have been substantial pay increases in the public sector in the form of increments, unemployment has increased and our finances have deteriorated further.

 

[cork]

Where are the savings from the Croke deal?
Where is the reform?
They are so may "Get out" clauses in this agreement - its continued existance makes no sense.

We have a government that lacks any type of leadership or bottle.

The Labour party care more about public sector unions than cut backs in services.

 

[thedaras]

To me it seems there is a "go slow" by all involved, thereby delaying much of what should have happened.
While we have the likes of chief executive of the Labour Relations Commission (LRC), Kieran Mulvey coming out with statements around the Croke Park deal,in my opionion he should not comment either way.
So now we have managers etc going to the LRC,trying to implement some change or other and we have the Chief of the Lrc making statements about who should and should not comment on it!
Ref:http://www.independent.ie/national-news/creighton-in-war-of-words-with-lrc-boss-3223697.html

"It is a bit rich for someone who was as cosseted as he was by benchmarking to state the Croke Park Agreement is un-breakable,'' she added. And she warned that this relationship "compromises his independence and leaves him open to the suggestion that he has a coloured perspective''.

 

[Knuttell]

The Labour party care more about public sector unions than cut backs in services.

And this will not be forgotten by the electorate at the next election,people are just standing on the sidelines quietly watching the disgraceful way Labour are carrying on,protecting a small minority at the expense of everything and everyone else and they will be punished for it in much the same way the Greens and the PDs were.

I expect labour to be decimated at the next election.

 

[Shawady]

I have just recieved an e-mail from public sector management reform group outlining current and future reforms. It is quoted from a government publication. There was a short paragraph on the pay bill that I thought worthwhile copying below. I assume the figures are just for current PS workers and do not incude PS pension costs.


These reforms are being introduced at a time when Public Service numbers are being dramatically reduced due to the necessity to make major savings in the Public Service pay bill. Public Service Numbers are now 28,000 lower (at 292,000 approx) than their peak (of 320,000 approx) at end 2008. The Exchequer pay bill has been reduced by 17.7% between 2009 and 2012, from €17.5bn (Gross) to €14.4bn (net of the Pension Related Deduction). Over the period 2009 to 2015, the Exchequer pay bill is expected to reduce by €3.8bn, or €3.3bn net of expected increases in public service pensions costs.

 

[cork]

It is shocking that while sevices are being cut many in the public sector are carrying on regardless.

The embargo is not an instrument for reform.

It simply is a blunt instrument to cut numbers.

No attempt is being made to reform, utilise staff better or make better use of technology.

 

[Calico]

And this will not be forgotten by the electorate at the next election,people are just standing on the sidelines quietly watching the disgraceful way Labour are carrying on,protecting a small minority at the expense of everything and everyone else and they will be punished for it in much the same way the Greens and the PDs were.

I expect labour to be decimated at the next election.

I expect every public sector worker will vote for labour, so they may not be decimated.

 

[Deiseblue]

I have just recieved an e-mail from public sector management reform group outlining current and future reforms. It is quoted from a government publication. There was a short paragraph on the pay bill that I thought worthwhile copying below. I assume the figures are just for current PS workers and do not incude PS pension costs.


These reforms are being introduced at a time when Public Service numbers are being dramatically reduced due to the necessity to make major savings in the Public Service pay bill. Public Service Numbers are now 28,000 lower (at 292,000 approx) than their peak (of 320,000 approx) at end 2008. The Exchequer pay bill has been reduced by 17.7% between 2009 and 2012, from €17.5bn (Gross) to €14.4bn (net of the Pension Related Deduction). Over the period 2009 to 2015, the Exchequer pay bill is expected to reduce by €3.8bn, or €3.3bn net of expected increases in public service pensions costs.

Damned impressive !

Congratulations to all involved - verifiable payroll savings & a reduction in numbers all achieved in a climate of industrial peace.

Looks like a successor to the CPA is the preferred option of the Government although the Unions apparently are looking for various guarantees before agreeing to return to the table.

 

[Purple]

Damned impressive !

Congratulations to all involved - verifiable payroll savings & a reduction in numbers all achieved in a climate of industrial peace.

Looks like a successor to the CPA is the preferred option of the Government although the Unions apparently are looking for various guarantees before agreeing to return to the table.

Did you notice the "Net of the Pension Related Deduction" bit? They are counting the Pension Levy as a pay cut. It should have been a pay cut but it wasn't and so counting it in muddies the waters. They also haven’t added in the increased pensions cost.

That said, in normal circumstances it would indeed be impressive but these aren't normal circumstances and it's nowhere near enough of a saving.

 

[Delboy]

It sounds to me exactly the same as the voluntary redundancy scheme currently rolled out by the Bank of Ireland.

The Bank decide what categories of staff/departments are in scope & hope to achieve the required target figures from that category.

In other words although they cannot target individuals they can target departments/ branches that they want to trim & hope that they can achieve the voluntary redundancies they require from those areas.

I have no idea where the latest PS proposed scheme is being aimed at but I can unequivocally say that it will be voluntary & people will not be tapped on the shoulder - compulsory redundancies are excluded under the CPA.

we have a very different understanding of what 'targeted' means. That's not targeted in my book and will only lead to more good people going and thus affect services...not that many seem to care about that.

And this 28,000 figure that is mentioned as the reduction in staff number since 2008....does that include people who were at retirement age/people who left on health grounds/people who just resigned?

 

[Deiseblue]

Did you notice the "Net of the Pension Related Deduction" bit? They are counting the Pension Levy as a pay cut. It should have been a pay cut but it wasn't and so counting it in muddies the waters. They also haven’t added in the increased pensions cost.

That said, in normal circumstances it would indeed be impressive but these aren't normal circumstances and it's nowhere near enough of a saving.

Hence the proposed additional targetted voluntary redundancy scheme allied to a proposed CPA 2 .

The coalition seems to have reined in the dissidents - even that most virulent of Union bashers , Mr. Varadkar, has stated in recent days that the coalition are honour bound to adhere to the Agreement.

The Government of course have to be pragmatic for a number of reasons - they are terrified of well planned , targetted industrial action , the political fall out in terms of disenchanting a major electorate rump & the probability of sending the morale & engagement of PS employees through the floor if they cut pay further leading to all sorts of IR problems in the future.

I believe the extremely positive reporting reform group findings will be used as a further tool by the coalition to ensure the survival of the CPA.

 

[Deiseblue]

we have a very different understanding of what 'targeted' means. That's not targeted in my book and will only lead to more good people going and thus affect services...not that many seem to care about that.

And this 28,000 figure that is mentioned as the reduction in staff number since 2008....does that include people who were at retirement age/people who left on health grounds/people who just resigned?

All I can do is outline how I think the scheme will work - as per my previous post comparing the scheme to the current Bank of Ireland scheme.

For further info & clarification as to how the scheme will operate I can only suggest that you raise the matter with your local public representatives.

I can only assume that the reduction in staff numbers is due to a combination of schemes available under the CPA & natural attrition.

 

[Firefly]

You don't make people redundant because of their performance.

Why not?

 

[Firefly]

The Government of course have to be pragmatic for a number of reasons - they are terrified of well planned , targetted industrial action , the political fall out in terms of disenchanting a major electorate rump & the probability of sending the morale & engagement of PS employees through the floor if they cut pay further leading to all sorts of IR problems in the future.

Hi Deise,

Apologies if I sound dramatic here, but considering that the next generation (my kids and your kids) will be have to repay the circa 300-400m a week we are borrowing to pay the bills, with interest, what price do you put on peaceful industrial relations? I mean, surely, at some point enough is enough?

Firefly.

 

[liaconn]

Why not?

Because there are laws about these things. You sack people because of their performance, following agreed procedures re written warnings etc.

To make someone redundant the post has to go altogether. You cannot make someone redundant and re-hire someone else in their place.

Therefore you need to be very clear whether you're sacking someone or making them redundant if yiou don't want to end up before a tribunal.

 

[cork]

Brian Lenihan brought in the embargo to cut numbers.

It was 100% necessary.

But with the passing of time - reform should be delivered.

We still have the local authoritys, quangos and waste.

We have some of the highest paid public servants in the EU.

The fact, govt are happy to cut services rather than reform is shocking.

There is a report in the DEpt of the Environment detailing how 500m+ can be saved in local govt gathering dust.

 

[Deiseblue]

Hi Deise,

Apologies if I sound dramatic here, but considering that the next generation (my kids and your kids) will be have to repay the circa 300-400m a day we are borrowing to pay the bills, with interest, what price do you put on peaceful industrial relations? I mean, surely, at some point enough is enough?

Firefly.

A bit too dramatic perhaps , if my maths are right ( by no means a racing certainty ) taking the median figure of 350 m a day equates to borrowings of approx 1 billion every 3 days - not correct surely ?

The prospect of industrial strife has been described as " Armageddon " by Minister Howlin.

 

[Firefly]

A bit too dramatic perhaps , if my maths are right ( by no means a racing certainty ) taking the median figure of 350 m a day equates to borrowings of approx 1 billion every 3 days - not correct surely ?

It's per week - I've updated my earlier post..