What could/would be wrong with this? Pay "Front Line" public servants relatively more

liaconn said:
Very general statement. Not all 'civil servants in an office' are sitting at a desk processing forms and writing up minutes of meetings all day. I totally agree with aonfocaleile's post and am fed up of this lazy stereotyping of people doing desk jobs. Many of them are doing equally or more important work as the people out on the frontline.
Also, are you saying a Prison Officer should be paid more that the Secretary General of a Department????
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As I have said before,why dont those who feel they are also "frontline",take it up with the unions?
Amazing that the union only mention ,Guards,teachers,nurses etc when they speak about the frontline..
 
Why should the PS be divided into 'frontline' and 'not frontline' for pay??? Do you seriously think that the 'frontline' could operate effectively without the backroom staff. Also, why should a teacher or nurse be paid more than someone drafting important legislation or working to encourage foreign direct investment. It is such a totally ridiculous argument, it really is.
 
liaconn said:
Why should the PS be divided into 'frontline' and 'not frontline' for pay??? Do you seriously think that the 'frontline' could operate effectively without the backroom staff. Also, why should a teacher or nurse be paid more than someone drafting important legislation or working to encourage foreign direct investment. It is such a totally ridiculous argument, it really is.
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+1.
The point has been made a number of times so far on this thread.
 
Do the unions not know this then?
It is the unions that keep mentioning the frontline.
I can only presume that they want us to believe there is a "frontline"?
Why are other so called non frontline members not taking this up with the unions?
 
thedaras said:
Do the unions not know this then?
It is the unions that keep mentioning the frontline.
I can only presume that they want us to believe there is a "frontline"?
Why are other so called non frontline members not taking this up with the unions?
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I wouldn't judge all public sector employees by the standards of public sector unions just as I wouldn't judge all English football fans by the standards of the English Defence League.
 
liaconn said:
I totally agree with aonfocaleile's post and am fed up of this lazy stereotyping of people doing desk jobs. Many of them are doing equally or more important work as the people out on the frontline.
Also, are you saying a Prison Officer should be paid more that the Secretary General of a Department????
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Equally or more important work put aside, those desk job employees are not working in a dangerous environment, with the threat of assault, violence,harm or injury (like a guard, prison officer, fire brigade worker) So I am not lazily stereotyping I just have a different opinion than you. I think those desk jobs are different since they don't deal with these issues I mention.
And where did I say that a Prison Officer should be paid more than the secretary of a department? (only 1 question mark needed)
 
Purple said:
I wouldn't judge all public sector employees by the standards of public sector unions just as I wouldn't judge all English football fans by the standards of the English Defence League.
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I see what you mean, however, the point is that as I understand it the majority of the PS are represented by the unions,the very unions that say there are frontline staff.

Also Im saying that if the PS non frontline people had a problem with the unions calling certain people frontline,they should take it up with them.But so far I haven't heard any challenge as to who the frontline staff are.

Perhaps the unions are more out of touch with their members than they realise.
 
fizzelina said:
Equally or more important work put aside, those desk job employees are not working in a dangerous environment, with the threat of assault, violence,harm or injury (like a guard, prison officer, fire brigade worker) So I am not lazily stereotyping I just have a different opinion than you. I think those desk jobs are different since they don't deal with these issues I mention.
And where did I say that a Prison Officer should be paid more than the secretary of a department? (only 1 question mark needed)
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Would you agree that it is not members of the public who are deciding who the "frontline " staff are.,it is in fact the unions who have decided this?
 
fizzelina said:
Equally or more important work put aside, those desk job employees are not working in a dangerous environment, with the threat of assault, violence,harm or injury (like a guard, prison officer, fire brigade worker) So I am not lazily stereotyping I just have a different opinion than you. I think those desk jobs are different since they don't deal with these issues I mention.
And where did I say that a Prison Officer should be paid more than the secretary of a department? (only 1 question mark needed)
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You said that prison officers should be paid more than civil servants working in an office, and a Sec Gen works in an office.

Why should rates of pay be decided solely on how dangerous an environment is? Surely ability to negotiate on behalf of Ireland at EU working groups, or devise policies to attract multi nationals to set up companies in Ireland, or draw up strategies to assist the socially excluded, or all the other crucially important things that 'desk jobs' entail also need to be taken into account. You seem to have a very old fashioned and limited idea of desk jobs in the public service. Some of those people are carrying out vital work, you know, even if they don't come home in the evening covered in blood.
 
Why will those who seem very involved in the unions not answer the elephant in the room question..Why do their unions call only certain members Frontline??
 
thedaras said:
Why will those who seem very involved in the unions not answer the elephant in the room question..Why do their unions call only certain members Frontline??
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Newsflash guys, the unions are paid to represent their members. The term frontline originated with the usual stuff from politicians trying to make themselves look good in front of the Gardaí and Nurses etc. The unions cottoned onto the term also and use it to appease their members.
 
frontline staff

The HSE in their attempt to reduce staff numbers by offering the redundancy package have distinguished between front line and non- frontline staff by offering said package to non front line staff only...

daithi
 
fizzelina said:
Equally or more important work put aside, those desk job employees are not working in a dangerous environment, with the threat of assault, violence,harm or injury...
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How much should the lion tamer in Fossetts circus get paid ?
 
Interesting to hear A&E consultant on Charlie Bird programme this evening - saying that the failure of the the health service is the responsibility of consultants, doctors, nurses,management and other staff. It was refreshing to hear an 'insider' call it as it is.
The unions representing front line staff are well organised and well resourced - yes, many of these staff work hard, but guess what - hundreds of thousands of workers in the private sector work hard, but without any guarantees on income and job security.
Vested interest groups will generally fight 'tooth and nail' to advance their members interests - regardless of the consequences for others. Therefore, we need government to force the required reforms in the public sector - as no amount of negotiations will lead to any meaningful changes.
Farmers, teachers, nurses, doctors, consultants, dentists, pharmacists, bankers, lawyers, and of course politicians, have consistently demonstrated a willingness to put their 'special interests' ahead of the interests of their fellow citizens, and of the country.
 
DonDub said:
The unions representing front line staff are well organised and well resourced - yes, many of these staff work hard, but guess what - hundreds of thousands of workers in the private sector work hard, but without any guarantees on income and job security.
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Just like the hundreds of thousands of public sector staff who work hard and have no guarantees on income or job security.
 
Complainer said:
Just like the hundreds of thousands of public sector staff who work hard and have no guarantees on income or job security.
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The day a public sector worker in this state is made compulsory redundant is a day that 'pigs will fly'. In fact, I don't ever recall a PS worker (AT ANY LEVEL) being fired for persistent poor performance - quite remarkable, given that there are c.350,000 of them.
Oh, and on income - they have the shameful Croke Park deal to protect their earnings. When Jack and the lads emerge from hiding after the election, I'm sure that they will play the old tune again... efficiencies will deliver the required savings......oh wait, I think I saw a pig fly past the window......oh no, it was just another plane load of involuntary emigrants leaving the country......
 
DonDub, don't be distracted from the main points you made:
"Interesting to hear A&E consultant on Charlie Bird programme this evening - saying that the failure of the the health service is the responsibility of consultants, doctors, nurses,management and other staff. It was refreshing to hear an 'insider' call it as it is."

"Vested interest groups will generally fight 'tooth and nail' to advance their members interests - regardless of the consequences for others. Therefore, we need government to force the required reforms in the public sector - as no amount of negotiations will lead to any meaningful changes."
You are being drawn into a Public V Private sector debate.
 
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