Will filing bankrupcy in UK clear my Irish debt?

Jim2007 said:
I have very serious doubts about this statement as the EU directive clearly places the jurisdiction for immovable property and so called entries in a public register in the hands of Irish courts not UK courts. Here is a quote from the EU documentation: "But secondary proceedings can be opened later to liquidate assets in another Member State. The law of the Member State in which such insolvency proceedings are opened determines their effects."

I have yet to see an EU case law which indicates either way as to who has the power to absolve a debt in the case of immovable property and furthermore how would the Irish courts react, if the bank were to show that the whole purpose of the UK actions were to frustrate their rights to recover debts due to them in Ireland, in other words a sham....

I would be very interested in seeing actual case law on this topic rather than legal opinions from parties with a vested interest in the process.

Jim.
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Hi Jim I covered this before. The secondary proceedings are just that, they are proceedings issued under the auspices of teh primary proceedings (ie bankruptcy of Liquidation) which enable the Trustee or Liquidator to free assets, by using an order for sale or such. They are not so someone else can come in and say this bankruptcy isn't fair.

The top bankruptcy Judges here have made it very clear that it actually doesn't matter if you choose to come to the UK simply for the purposes of going bankrupt. as long as you properly establsih your COMI (see my postings on this) you are entitled to your bankruptcy order. It is the fact of the COMi and not why you came that is important.

I hope this has cleared up some misunderstandings.

Steve
 
Steve Thatcher said:
....
The top bankruptcy Judges here have made it very clear that it actually doesn't matter if you choose to come to the UK simply for the purposes of going bankrupt. as long as you properly establsih your COMI (see my postings on this) you are entitled to your bankruptcy order. It is the fact of the COMi and not why you came that is important.

....
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Can you provide more info on that, for example case law from a court of record?

edited to add: Just to be clear, I am asking where have these top judges made it clear that it doesn't matter to your bankruptcy case if your only reason to be in the UK is for bankruptcy?
 
Steve Thatcher said:
Hi Jim I covered this before. The secondary proceedings are just that, they are proceedings issued under the auspices of teh primary proceedings (ie bankruptcy of Liquidation) which enable the Trustee or Liquidator to free assets, by using an order for sale or such. They are not so someone else can come in and say this bankruptcy isn't fair.

The top bankruptcy Judges here have made it very clear that it actually doesn't matter if you choose to come to the UK simply for the purposes of going bankrupt. as long as you properly establsih your COMI (see my postings on this) you are entitled to your bankruptcy order. It is the fact of the COMi and not why you came that is important.

I hope this has cleared up some misunderstandings.

Steve
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Hi Steve,

Can you provide case law on this, show a foreign court simply rubber stamping a decision of UK court, because I don't see anything in the EU legislation to suggest that they have to do as you suggest.

Jim.
 
Jim2007 said:
Hi Steve,

Can you provide case law on this, show a foreign court simply rubber stamping a decision of UK court, because I don't see anything in the EU legislation to suggest that they have to do as you suggest.

Jim.
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Jim have a look at the link. This is the official Official Receiver's own hand book. See 41.66

http://www.insolvencydirect.bis.gov...nual/Ch37-48/chapter41/part5/part 5.htm#41.69

I will try and find the original Stephen Baister quote for you.

I am completely satisfied with my advice here.
 
To look at it another way, what bank/institution has sought to undo an Irish person going solely to the UK to declare bankruptcy in Irish courts. None so far. There is a very high profile developer who has gone to the UK precisely for UK bankruptcy, it's mentioned from time to time in the papers, and with his level of debt if there were any doubt about his rights to go 'forum shopping' then his Irish creditors would presumably either objected to his bankruptcy proceedings in the UK or taken proceedings against him in the Irish courts.
 
Steve Thatcher said:
In that situation if you hold it in your sole name, it vests in the OR. You would need to take steps to buy it off of him for the equity value if you wanted to keep it. If it is jointly owned only half of the equity would be available to the OR and an agreement can be struck to have this transferred to the spouse for a sum close to but probably slightly less than half the equity value.
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If the irish property is jointly owned and mortgaged by a married couple and the uk property is solely owned/mortgaged by the wife only, can the irish property and mortgage be transferred to the name of the husband only so when husband declares bankruptcy in UK then the UK property cannot be touched.
Is this correct?
 
Re: original question.

Seems to work for Mr Quinn, so it should in theory work for the OP.
 
I moved to Scotland almost three years ago. Due to my separation from my wife i became financially unstable and eventually entered into a Scottish Trust Deed (a far better option than bankruptcy - new slate after 3 years). I have been assured by the Deed holder (a very reputable firm) that any mortgage shortfall is included in the Deed and that all of my Irish creditors are bound by the Deed.
Ive just completed the first year of the deed and still receive letters from the mortgage company seeking monies. My former 'rogue' solicitor emailed me the other day actually stating that he (and the banks) were not bound by it as they are in a different jurisdiction! (He is a creditor). Regardless of what they say, as a UK resident my Trust Deed stands and they are bound to it.
 
Time:
"Not really. The sale of the house would not complete because of the shortfall. The bank would have to give permission for the sale to proceed. "

Technically correct, however you could inform the bank I'm selling my property for say 100k even thought I owe you 250k they may disagree to it but if they don't allow you to sell it for 100k and in a years time it's only worth 50k you are entitled to sue them for the balance, and the reverse applies should they force you to Sell it for 100k and in a years time your property is worth 200k then You are entitled to sue them For 100k
 
Hi Steve.. your information is brilliant...
I live in Ireland.. My husband who is a british citizen and myself, are looking to return to the UK as I am a recent Graduate with a degree and cannot get a job here... We also have 2 small children.. We are in negative equity.. Would you recommend, us to hand the keys in, come to a agreement for a loan for the shortfall, then when we are resident in the UK, declare bankrupcy....
 
Time said:
You need to box clever here.

The bank still needs a judgement in the high court even where there is a voluntary surrender. If the bank get wind of a bankruptcy in the offing they will simply sit on their hands. You need them to convert the mortgage into an unsecured debt. They won't want to lose out. If you tip them off they will wait until your UK bankruptcy is over and then hit you with the shortfall.
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What do you mean they will wait till your uk bankruptcy is over
and then chase for the shortfall. I thought you can't be chased after going bankrupt ?
Also, I didn't realize that there has to be a high court process to voluntarily surrender the property.
 
You can surrender possession of the property without converting the shortfall to an unscured loan. In bky a secured creditor is entitled to value their security and claim in the bky without selling the asset. If an asset is sold at a loss to the secured creditor post bky the secured creditor cannot pursue the debt against you. In summary all debts are included and discharged in the bky bar a few exceptions eg fines and matrimonial bebts.
 
By moving you and your family to the Uk you will establish your COMI and after 3 months you will be able to petition for bankruptcy.
 
Stressedlady, there is a bit more to it than Callaghan suggests which is the basics. Have a look at all the threads by the poster called Steve Thatcher.
 
have been having a look, do you inform your mortgage company you intend to file for bankrupcy and then hand the keys in... or do you just (And I don't mean JUST as I know it is a big step) hand the key in and then the shortfall after the house is sold is the unsecured loan....?
 
Make sure you do your own research but I would pack up and go, move in somewhere in the UK to establish your residency there, send the key back to the bank, inform them of your new address and that you intend to make a new life there. Notify Irish revenue and all your banks that you have left by registered post. In the Uk it will be important to have rent in your name, utility bill and open a bank account and do all your banking via that account and try for a job. Make sure you have enough money for 3 to 6 months. Be careful with letting agencies, some of them have scams going, one of them is I think 400 Euro for a credit check. It is pointless them doing a credit check in the UK on you as there is no record. When you apply for bankruptcy there is a procedure to follow. I think it's the bankruptcy trustee over there, you need to contract this office and they no doubt will tell you what to do, but it will be them that deals with the bank and your other creditors.

It is important that you notify everybody of your change of address by registered post (keep the proof) document everything. Also de register to vote in Ireland and register in the UK. You can hire the services of an agency to help you with the legwork if you can afford it and are not capable of handling it yourself. Make sure you find a reputable agency. No doubt the Irish center in London/big cities have a lot of advice, and indeed maybe the one's in Ireland for those leaving.

Also if you do go please post back how you get on and each step of the way. There are many people in your situation and your actual experience would be of great help. It's not an easy step. Don't be stressed anymore.
 
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