Key Post What should I charge for house design and planning submission ?

cathye

Registered User
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14
Hi,

I'm an unemployed Architectural Technician. Not registered with RIAI. Plenty of experience with planning applications. Have been asked would i design v. standard 4 bed house (approx. 2500sqft.)and submit for planning.

Client made fully aware that i would not be doing working drawings/supervising work etc. and also that I do not not have indemnity insurance.

What would u consider reasonable to charge for this service ?
 
How long is a piece of string?

Firstly you are not unemployed, you are - by the sounds of it - preparing to take on your first private commission. And despite all the utter tosh being talked these days by the RIAI and others who should know better attempting to control the profession, you will be providing architectural services and therefore acting as an architect for your clients.

You owe it to them to treat their design as if you were the best architect in the world and theirs was the most ground breaking design - both assumptions may prove to be unfounded over time, but a positive mental attitude like this towards your work is a must :) it doesn't matter that you cannot use the title legally - act as if you are and can, because you can legally provide architectural services - set high standards and keep to them.

Secondly, 1500 sqft is a standard 4-bed house, so that's not what you're doing.
2,500 sqft implies a degree of fine detailing, a processios of spaces, soing something interesting with the hall and stairs and perhaps offering a storey and a half lounge or overlookign internal balcony for a WOW factor element - plus a nice kitchen layout. If you're bringing these added-value-and-interest design elements to this job you should charge for them. If you're working for a very demanding client they should pay for the privilege.

Thirdly, why aren't you taking this to site? I would sooner have an architectural technician supervising PI'd or not, than leave this to a builder who doesn't know the current regulations. Allocate sonme of your fees from say the briefd stage to purchasing some PI cover. Try AON insurances if you don't get advice from someone else.

Bone up on the current Passive Haus standard and advise your clients of the incoming changes to Part L [carbon neutral by 2013]. Suggest they reach Passive Haus or A1 standard as a minimum. Learn about weathering sealing from without, variable vapour checks from within and reducing the amount of embedded energy overall. If they're in the country, advise them of the Minister's intention to raise a charge on wastewater systems and specify a good one - Biocycle for example [no connection]. Much of this is technical information well within the capacity of an architctural technician.

Make them aware of the environmental issues involved in building a house and using ambient energy sources to augment their home heating facilities. Do a life-cost analysis for them in terms of the finishes used to help convince them to use better quality finishes and windows now and don't be afraid to strive for quality in your work.

If they appreciate what you are trying to do for them and like your design [a nice axonometric and section or model would help sell it to them] then don't be afraid to charge for it.

Fees - start talking at 10-15% discounting down to 6-8% for hard bargainers, striving for half at planning lodgement but accepting one third and seeking staged payments through (i) brief, (ii) completed design and (iii) planning lodgement stages if they've beaten you down on the percentage - all paid for on the date of delivery of the stage. There are too many cowboys not paying their fees and too many good architects running up bad debts and going out of business.

Write to your clients stating your position as you did above and requesting a letter of appointment to provide archtiectural services to planning stage for the agreed fee - after you've agreed it of course. Give them a blank letter of appointment to sign something along the lines of; -

RE: Letter of Appointment

I/We [NAME] and [NAME] hererby appoint Cathye [NAME] to provide architectural services to planning stage for a dwelling on site at [POSTAL ADDRESS OF SITE] in accordance with the work stages and fee amounts in the Fee Agreement dated [DATE] attached hereto.

Signed [NAME] and [NAME]

Date: [DATE]


There are firms out there selling terms and conditions advice if you want to take this and include it on the fee agreement and or on the back of each and every invoice you issue. You also need to appoint an accountant to handle your tax returns, advise you on company formation/ sole tradership formation, registration of your business name with the companies regulation office and opening up your trading-as bank account.

Trouble with detailing or design - try asking here, on archiseek.com or on Boards.ie in the Planning Forum - its run by architectural technicians or the Architecture Forum. Look on the Construct Ireland website to see the latest "green" designs and arrange site visits for yourself and your clients. Look on archiseek.com for general design comments on similar work, and don't be afraid to ask a friendly architect for advice. Times are tough, and you may get a short answer, but we all remember what our first job flying free was like and somone to fall back on to answer questions is useful.

Do make sure they appoint an engineer to specify structure and offer a cert in respect of same. I would also suggest you pay for an M&E to at least draft an up-to-the-minute specification for the house - it will pay dividends at tender time and on site. As part of this do some upt to the minute research on passive/ hybrid or forced ventilation and get your friendly M&E to do a study on max and min ambient temperature conditions. There is nothing worse than an overheating highly insulated house in the summer - think 26 degrees C internally and rising. Be careful if specifying a south facing conservatory for example, both in terms of overheating and compliance with Part L and F of the building regulations.

HTH


ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
Just browsing through the site and i felt the need to comment on the excellence of this answer. Could not be more helpful or informative. It is thorough and informed posts like this that make Askaboutmoney the success it is. Great Stuff
 
Thanks so much for the reply. It went way beyond what I expected in form of a reply and was extremely informative. I appreciate the time you took to pass on your worthy advice and hope to put some of into practice asap. Thanks again
 
Just browsing through the site and i felt the need to comment on the excellence of this answer. Could not be more helpful or informative. It is thorough and informed posts like this that make Askaboutmoney the success it is. Great Stuff

Thanks for your kind words sman.

It means a lot to to know that we are giving advice that's considered useful, not just to the Original Poster [OP] but to our more general readers who may happen on a thread due to its title and browse a bit.

I know some people in the archtiectural profession will look at my advice and scratch their heads and say that I'm seeding the universe with my competitors but so what?

In the long run my policy will bear fruit.

Keeping prices high doesn't entice people to use a service.
Driving down prices and giving value for money is what helps grow a market where you wouldn't have thought one existed.

Let any detractors look at the Ryanair success story if they don't believe me - more people flying more places in reasonable comfort and safety.

After you "up the numbers" its down to how economically you can process the work to satisfy the market and raise your turnover and thereby make an overall profit.

Helping people like Cathye to become more professional and competitive will have long term benefits for the consumer and ultimately the profession as a whole.

:)

ONQ.
 
Thanks so much for the reply. It went way beyond what I expected in form of a reply and was extremely informative. I appreciate the time you took to pass on your worthy advice and hope to put some of into practice asap. Thanks again

You're a technician.

Your natural terrirory is building work, not design per se.

But small to medium house design is well within most technicians' ability.

And as far as I can remember, one of the members of ODOS architects started his career as an architectural technician.

Have a look at their site - challenge your clients - dare to design - dare to build.

http://www.odosarchitects.com/

BTW, best not to mention my name over on boards.ie

I got banned from there for posting long informative replies to questions like the one above.

Still the guys over there seem very competent within their discipline and some post here also - eg sydthebeat.

:)

FWIW

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
Can I also add to Smans comments. In all my time in Ask about money, I always look forward to your posts ONQ and read them with interest. You are generous, encouraging and informative with your comments and if I was building a house I would be glad to know you were on my side.

I imagine one of the most important things between an architect/client is the relationship they build up. If I didn't click with the architect, I couldn't go any further. I would want the architect to tease out of me, the client , information/ideas I may not even have thought of particularly for the wow factor.

Keep up the good work ONQ.

P
 
Okay, I'm blushing now - at my age - and shedding a little tear.

In the middle of this economic disaster we are in, the kindness of strangers matters a great deal.

If we don't treat the next generation well, how will they pass on what is the best about us in their turn.

We cannot let ourselves be brutalised by harsh economic circumstances into being less than Irish, or human to each other.

Thank you.

ONQ.
 
Another thing to note before embarking on obtaining PI insurance and striking out on the self employed road is that you should really plan to keep some form of insurance in place for at least 6 years after you sign your last cert (and probably 12 years is a safer bet). So while in no way wanting to put a downer on things, you should be aware of this before committing to PI.

You should also note that once you design a building and lodge a planning application, you are taking on some liability, and I would be careful about even lodging a planning application without having some form of insurance in place.
 
Another thing to note before embarking on obtaining PI insurance and striking out on the self employed road is that you should really plan to keep some form of insurance in place for at least 6 years after you sign your last cert (and probably 12 years is a safer bet). So while in no way wanting to put a downer on things, you should be aware of this before committing to PI.

You should also note that once you design a building and lodge a planning application, you are taking on some liability, and I would be careful about even lodging a planning application without having some form of insurance in place.

There is a reasonable position to take on this - the common sense approach.

Statutory approvals put onerous vetting processes in place which deal with the most egregious of potential errors.
A commercial practice will be less likely to make an error, but may offer a more impersonal, rigid service.
The audacity and freshness of a young office may well be offset by a lack of experience.
A personal service may be compromsed by the client's requirements/ instructions.
As in all thnigs, its horses for courses and you get what you pay for.

Many people starting out cannot obtain Professional Indemnity cover for a reasonable price.
The requirement to obtain P.I. cover was governed by this specific term in the RIAI code of conduct.

P.I. cover in and of itself doesn't signify competence - it may only signify deep pockets.

Equally, past performance is not a reliable indicator of future ability, especially now.
During this recession many former top-flight offices have lost key and/or specialist personnel.

A prospective client needs to perform the usual checks and needs not to be lead and said by job description writers.

I sympathised recently with one senior architect, MRIAI Part III, who was vastly experienced at all manner of buildings - including having done an airport (!) - but who felt he was unlikely to even get a call back from one agency because the job description listed experience in designing medical facilities as a requirement.

I'm not sure what agencies think such experience [possibly from 10 years ago] brings to a design.
Apart from off-the-cuff comments on an initial briefing meetings, I suggest not a lot.
Architects are trained to undertake the necessary research to develop a brief

Writers in the agency job discription world seem to think there are legions of architects who do nothing but design hospitals.
The reality is that hospitals are few and far between in most offices resumés, neve mind individual architects.

A common sense review of the archtiect's past work and the person to see if he's competent is useful.
In terms of actual performance, I think such traits are far more important than mandatory maintenance of P.I. cover or having niche design experience.
But yes, maintaining P.I. cover into one's dotage will be a requirement for some over-65's assuming they can retire after this current financial debacle we're in.

ONQ.

[broken link removed]

All advice on AAM is remote from the situation and cannot be relied upon as a defence or support - in and of itself - should legal action be taken.
Competent legal and building professionals should be asked to advise in Real Life with rights to inspect and issue reports on the matters at hand.
 
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