What left wing politicians should tell their electorate

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Isnt it that Soverign Debt is where the State borrows - so a big deal if the state defaults. Whereas if business (e.g. Anglo) issues bonds to borrow but ends up short of the proverbial pot, then that is 'normal' debt and the lender (bondholder) may get burned.

I'm no expert but as I see it the EU put a gun to Lenihan's head for the state to guarantee the Anglo (& other bank) bonds. Maybe not on "the famous night" but remember that the guarantee was only a short term thing....initially. I think it was once the scale of the problem emerged that German banks didnt fancy such a scalding and decided the Irish taxpayer would be the better mark (pardon the pun) the carry the burden.

I've surprised myself with that left leaning populist view ;), but the pragmatist in me says its done now, suck it up, move on, riots and burned cars wouldnt have changed anything.
 
Has anyone who touted the burning at any point provided a single example of where burning bondholders worked out better than the alternative?

Just reading through the post, Iceland would be a good example where the burning of senior and junior bond holders appears to have worked out OK for the Country. In relation to Ireland's situation, Graig Beaumont of the IMF stated that the Irish Government could have saved billions of euro if they burned just the junior unsecured bond holders, but alas they didn't and every gambler got paid in the casino ( as it turns out, by the Irish taxpayer ). Banks like State Street bank bought Irish Government debt ( when this very proposition was been mulled over by Government ) at huge discounts from Deutsches bank and others. The Irish Government then paid State Street Bank back in full, cent for cent, allowing State Street to make 100's of millions in profits from that deal alone. Fair play to them, took the gamble, ( like all the others ) they must have known the Government would bottle it.
 
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Just reading through the post, Iceland would be a good example where the burning of senior and junior bond holders appears to have worked out OK for the Country.

Iceland was also suggested by odyssey06 earlier. The 60% currency devaluation they had to inflict doesn't strike me as working out OK for the country. That €20 Penny's/Primark top costs €80 in the Kringlan Mall.

There's massive industrial unrest and the government have warned that some of the pay awards they had to concede to last year to resolve strikes that were crippling the country will lead to massive inflation that will negate the effects of the rises in the short term. They even passed more legislation to bar further sections of the workforce from striking, including academics. They had no fresh mean available for over a month last year, even KFC and Dominos branches had to shut down. That's hardly doing well.

They were only able to re-enter the bond market last year and paid 3.24%.
 
Iceland was also suggested by odyssey06 earlier. The 60% currency devaluation they had to inflict doesn't strike me as working out OK for the country. That €20 Penny's/Primark top costs €80 in the Kringlan Mall.

There's massive industrial unrest and the government have warned that some of the pay awards they had to concede to last year to resolve strikes that were crippling the country will lead to massive inflation that will negate the effects of the rises in the short term. They even passed more legislation to bar further sections of the workforce from striking, including academics. They had no fresh mean available for over a month last year, even KFC and Dominos branches had to shut down. That's hardly doing well.

They were only able to re-enter the bond market last year and paid 3.24%.

So what, they wrote of 10's if not 100's of billions of euro in debt that they did not lumber the citizens of their Country with for generations, as oppose to what the Irish Government did in this Country.

So what if their currency devalued 60%, this means their imports are dearer but their exports are cheaper. Iceland is a highly export driven economy, which means that it exports vastly more than it imports, all those revenues are received in Dollar and Euro.

Industrial unrest was to be expected, but look at this Country where we were good little boys and guaranteed to pay back every single cent we borrowed as a State ( to gamblers ), is there not industrial unrest- luas drivers, train drivers, junior doctors, nurses etc. Iceland's prosecutors have jailed 28 bankers to date with trials continuing and they are going after politicians as well.

Well done Iceland, Timothy Geithner ( the economist and ex Fed Chief who talked up your Country as a place to invest in ) would be proud.

Leo, if you have children, their children's children will be paying extra taxes to help pay back these bondholders. Great little Country.
 
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I do love the way that some people seem to think what happened in Iceland is a panacea for all problems and all Ireland had to do was burn the bondholders and we'd all be fine

Unfortunately the facts don't back it up

Do people realize for example that in Iceland
  • the combined Income and municipal tax starts at 37%
  • that the average tax rate in Iceland has increased from 36% to 46% over the last 8 years.
  • that children can actually have an income tax liability,
  • that corporation tax is 20%,
  • that a worker must pay at least 4% of their salary into a private pension
Do you want to buy a bottle of beer in Iceland, €7 please- for a bottle!!
Go to McD's for a Big Mac meal- €11

And if you want a mortgage, all assuming you can get one because of the credit restrictions, try a 7% interest rate. Suddenly PTSB don't look so bad

Most Icelander lose more then 50% of their salary in tax, their equivalent of PRSI, levies and pensions, including low earners

I've no argument that Iceland has got back on it's feet and has nearly full employement but how much of that was done to the Icelandic govt forcing other countries to bail out their banks for them when they refused to do so themselves (look at what the UK Govt had to do for the Icelandic banks in the UK). Ireland were not in a position to do that. Secondly, regardless of who did what, the argument that the actions Iceland took had no negative effect on their citizens is ludicrous.
 
The argument that the actions Iceland took had no negative effect on their citizens is ludicrous.

Can you please point out where someone in this thread is making an argument that the actions Iceland took had no negative effect on their citizens?
Or that if we burned the bondholders we'd be all fine?

The post seems to have setup a strawman argument and then the statistics quoted do not even do a very good job of knocking said strawman down. For example, corporation tax in Iceland in 2007 was 18%. Now it's 20%. Pre-bailout, Iceland was renowned for its punitive alcohol taxes. A can of beer in 2005 cost $4.

In May 2004 Iceland's interest rate was approx. 5%, by late 2005 it was 10%.
Iceland's economic crisis started in 2008.

The tax burden increased in Iceland on citizens. In Ireland we have had USC to contend with, property tax, water charges, VAT increases, excise increases targeting wine+spirits, PRSI allowances abolished, PRSI benefits cut (e.g. dental), capping of medical insurance tax relief, increases in medical insurance levies, pension levy, tax credit decreases.

The choice is between two alternatives. One assumes there are consequences to both alternatives or people would either be burning bondholders every day or calling in the IMF\Troika at the drop of a hat.

Germany had the money to lend to us to bail out the banks, couldn't they have bailed out their own banks? We got a very bad deal in the bailout from the Troika. First FF rolled over when they came to town, and then FG rolled over when they came to power and didn't burn the junior bondholders.
 
Can you please point out where someone in this thread is making an argument that the actions Iceland took had no negative effect on their citizens?
Or that if we burned the bondholders we'd be all fine?.

There is a quote in one of the posts above which states
they wrote of 10's if not 100's of billions of euro in debt that they did not lumber the citizens of their Country with for generations,

To me, that implies that the actions they Icelandic Govt took had no negative impact on their citizens,. Perhaps you read something different into the comment, but I don't
 
There is a quote in one of the posts above which states
"they wrote of 10's if not 100's of billions of euro in debt that they did not lumber the citizens of their Country with for generations"
To me, that implies that the actions they Icelandic Govt took had no negative impact on their citizens,. Perhaps you read something different into the comment, but I don't

I don't see how you can reasonably go from that statement to "no negative impact." I've read it five times now and no, just don't see it. Your understanding would only be correct if 'debt', and long term debt at that, is the only negative consequence possible.
 
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Here's from the Irish Daily Mail - not my usual newspaper but came across it on our companies "news" service, and thought it might be interesting for this thread:

WHY THE LEFT IS NEVER RIGHT
19-Mar-16- Irish Daily Mail


SHORTLY after the fall of communism in 1989, I was lecturing a group of university students on the topic of 'Marxism'. I intended to show why this so-called 'philosophy' was not only discredited but also deeply dangerous. The Berlin Wall had fallen and the grim reality of what lay behind the Iron Curtain was obvious for all to see. After the lecture, my students asked why on earth we were studying something that had led to so much genocide and untold misery. The fact that Karl Marx exerted such influence on recent history was irrelevant. A system, after all, can only be judged by its consequences, and communism had been revealed as something monstrous.
According to The Black Book Of Communism, published in 1997 by a future German president among others, communism was responsible for the deaths of 94million souls. Under Chairman Mao, 65million Chinese perished. Lenin, Stalin and their fellow dictators in Eastern Europe succeeded in killing 30million. Pol Pot has the special distinction of having massacred one third of the Cambodian population in just four years. Add to that the living hell endured by those who escaped the forced famines, the gulags and, of course, the 'great leap forward' in China. The terrible poverty, the hopelessness and the intense fear that you might be reported for crimes against the Communist Party. My friend, the late philosopher Jacques Derrida, was arrested and imprisoned by the Czech Communist authorities in 1981. Of that experience he later wrote: 'Until one is touched by something like this, one cannot imagine what a paradise of liberty we live in.'
Yet now, in this our paradise of liberty, we have political parties that still style themselves as 'socialist'. Even after a century of communist cruelty and despair, the Irish left continues to peddle the same old Marxist dogma that devastated half the globe. Without a hint of shame, Sinn Féin, People Before Profit, the Anti-Austerity Alliance and independent TDs like Mick Wallace and Clare Daly, proudly wave the red flag.
This also extends to Britain, where Labour Party leader Jeremy Corbyn is a selfwould confessed Marxist. Before his election as leader last year, Corbyn said that Marx 'was a fascinating figure who observed a great deal and from whom we can learn a great deal'. Given that we have already learned more than enough about the ruinous effects of Marxism, a comment like that ought to be dismissed as delusional. The fact remains, however, that Mr Corbyn is not only tightening his grip on the Labour Party, but riding the crest of a popular wave. And then there is the ubiquitous figure of former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis, another self-declared Marxist who is currently advising everyone from the Irish left to Corbyn to the Scottish Nationalists. Not content with having brought his country to the brink of ruin last summer, Dr Varoufakis is now intent on doing likewise here and elsewhere.
On the eve of our recent general election, he demanded that the Irish electorate 'send Michael Noonan packing'. You might think, following the mayhem Varoufakis and the Syriza Party visited upon Greece, that the socialist surge in Ireland, Britain, Spain and Portugal have diminished.
You might think that the litany of horrors perpetrated in Marx's name would be enough to consign his wretched system to the trash heap of history. On the contrary, not only are socialists and Marxists back in force, but they have consolidated their position in Irish politics. Sinn Féin currently holds 23 seats in the Dáil, while People Before Profit and the Anti-Austerity Alliance have six. Add the left-wing independents and you have more than 30 seats held by people committed to a radical socialist agenda. Put simply: there is a sizeable socialist faction at large in Dáil Éireann. Why is this? Why is it that even after all the atrocities and economic destruction, such discredited politics can still exert such a hold on the imagination?
Study the policies of those parties and you will very quickly see that they are full of the same empty slogans that characterised the communist manifestos. We are told that everything, from the health service to our education system, must be nationalised or subject to state control. We are told that we must have a society founded on equality and 'social justice'. We are told that the wealthy - 'developers, bankers and investors' - must bear the highest tax burden for they are somehow responsible for most of our social and economic woes.
One of the reasons socialism refuses to go away, is that Marx predicted capitalism would one day give way to communism. Capitalism and the democratic order is, he said, an ideology that serves only the interests of the powerful and wealthy. Not until that order is smashed will the ordinary workers finally realise how much they have been enslaved. It doesn't matter that Marx never told us what this new communist utopia would look like. The only thing that matters is that the political system as we know it is overthrown.
Of course, that will require a revolution because capitalists and democrats won't relinquish power without a fight. AT one level, this is intoxicating and inspiring. The idea of casting off the chains of custom in the name of 'social justice' is something that thrills the heart of those who long to change the world.
For grown-ups, however, it is rightly considered a danger to the rule of law and to the carefully crafted consensus upon which democracy depends.
As we saw at the beginning of the new parliamentary term last week, and as we regularly witness on our streets, the left are impatient when it comes to compromise, negotiation and consensus. They are quite happy to contravene the established customs of Dáil Éireann. They are quite happy to break the law in pursuit of their 'ideals'. And, in questioning the decisions of the courts in relation to Thomas 'Slab' Murphy, Sinn Féin has shown that it has scant respect for judicial independence.
Of course, it is no surprise that judicial independence was always the first thing to go in communist countries. The actual courts were replaced by 'People's Courts', which simply worked to purge the enemies, and exonerate the friends, of the Communist Party. That they did so with ruthless efficiency explains why so many millions were dispatched to mass graves.
When, in October 2015, Gerry Adams visited Cuba, he claimed that the new rapprochement between Cuba and the United States will 'present many challenges', but that 'such challenges are part of the revolutionary struggle'. The Castros have governed Cuba for more than 50 years. Why, then, is there still a need for revolution and struggle? What, in other words, are they still struggling towards? The simple answer is that this 'longing for total revolution' cannot end until the communist paradise has been achieved. So long as capitalism survives, the revolution, and the party that pursues it, must persist. Not until the old world order is abolished, and we all enjoy a state of utopian socialist liberty, can we cease the struggle.
When Sinn Féin and the Anti-Austerity Alliance call for the abolition of water charges, people can either agree or disagree with them. For that is a policy issue that can be democratically debated like any other. However, would any of those people who back Sinn Féin on water charges enjoy living in a society where they could neither buy nor sell as they pleased? A society where everything was under the control of a state apparatus - an apparatus that routinely fails to run anything effectively? A society where people are targeted simply because of how much they earn, irrespective of the fact that such people provide the jobs and tax revenue to keep the country going?
Both Sinn Féin and People Before Profit assume that profit is intrinsically evil. They assume that wealth is always earned at the expense of some group or class - people who are exploited and not sufficiently paid for their services. That is why both parties scapegoat the 'wealthy', who are, for them, the new 'bourgeoisie'.
First, what incentive would anyone have to invest, develop or employ people, other than profit? The profit motive is what makes economies tick and without it they would simply grind to a halt, as it did in the old Soviet Union. It is profit that enables businesses to operate effectively and entrepreneurs to create employment.
MOREOVER, the so-called 'wealthy' did not become so by exploitation or extortion. They made their money by hard work, risk and entrepreneurial innovation. Why, therefore, target their wealth, unless, of course, you believe that they earned it unjustly or you are simply driven by resentment at their success? All of this is, of course, masked under the banner of 'equality', but we all know that there is no such thing as equality. It is true that we are all equal before the law, but people have intrinsically different ambitions, talents, beliefs and abilities. How, therefore, are you to suppress these differences without resorting to force?
The question, it seems, answers itself. If you want to know what all this looks like in practice, take a glance at the socialist experiment that Sinn Féin has already undertaken in West Belfast. That benighted heartland of socialist republicanism boasts the highest levels of child poverty, the highest level of welfare dependency and the highest housing waiting lists in the UK. It also receives just 1% of job creation funds. In other words, the so-called 'antiausterity' policies of the militant Irish left lead only to one thing: perpetual poverty.
Of course, like the communists before them, that is exactly how they like it. For when you give people the skills, training and dignity to escape the poverty trap, they very quickly realise that, for all its faults, the capitalist way of life is far preferable to any other on offer - most especially the socialist alternative. They also see the lunacy of opting for revolution over reform, resentment over accommodation and intimidation over democracy. And when that realisation dawns, the left very quickly loses their support.
Far better, therefore, to keep people dependent on the State so that you are assured of their vote. Put simply, socialist politics is so intellectually and morally deficient it beggars belief why anyone should still subscribe to it.
Gerry Adams, Mary Lou McDonald, Paul Murphy, Richard Boyd Barrett, Jeremy Corbyn and Yanis Varoufakis are but the latest in a long line of pseudo-Marxists who refuse to accept how politically and ethically vacuous it is. The Communist crimes of the last century should have cured people of the temptation to peddle such dogma. And yet they continue to so as if those crimes, and all the associated misery, never happened.
As we face into a new Dáil term, in which politicians of a socialist persuasion are preparing to cause as much trouble as they can, we should think hard about where their longing for total revolution may one day lead us. And then we should challenge them to say what moral justification they could possibly have for promoting a cause whose only legacy is murder, despair and mayhem. In the end, of course, there is no justification, which goes to prove that the only thing we can still learn from Marx is why the left is never right.
Socialism should have been consigned to the ash-heap of history when the Berlin Wall fell. Instead, it is back with a vengeance at home and abroad. Yet this discredited creed - espoused by Sinn Féin, Richard Boyd Barrett et al - has caused nothing but misery, death and destruction.
It MUST be rejected.
 
Here's from the Irish Daily Mail - not my usual newspaper but came across it on our companies "news" service, and thought it might be interesting for this thread:

Hi newirishman,

What a fantastic piece. Should be prescribed reading in our LC History curriculum.

Interesting about the Berlin Wall too - when it came down, people only traveled one way!

Firefly.
 
Here's from the Irish Daily Mail - not my usual newspaper but came across it on our companies "news" service, and thought it might be interesting for this thread:

WHY THE LEFT IS NEVER RIGHT
19-Mar-16- Irish Daily Mail
Excellent article. Can you post a link to the source please?
 
An interesting read that reminded me of my own socialist views as a teenager that turned capitalism after my first paycheck ;)
 
It reminds me of that great story about the Commissar visiting the collective farm in the 1930’s.

He questions one of the peasants about his understanding of Communism;


“Comrade”, he said, “As a Communist what would you do if you had two houses?”


“I would give one to my neighbour comrade” replied the peasant.


“And if you had two horses, would you also give one to your neighbour?” asked the Commissar.


“Yes, of course comrade” replied the peasant.


“And if you had two coats, would you also give one to your neighbour?” asked the Commissar.


“No.” Replied the peasant.


“What! Why not?!” asked the Commissar.


“...well I have two coats” he replied.
 
"If you're not a socialist before you're twenty-five, you have no heart; if you are a socialist after twenty-five, you have no head", not sure who said it. I think socialism as an idea appeals to the young. As you age and realise how difficult it would be to implement, the enthusiasm fades.

Socialist: someone who has nothing and wants to share it with everyone.
 
I like this one - probably urban myth, but a good story all the same....

An economics professor at Texas Tech said he had never failed a single student before but had, once, failed an entire class. The class had insisted that socialism worked and that no one would be poor and no one would be rich, a great equalizer. The professor then said ok, we will have an experiment in this class on socialism. All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade so no one would fail and no one would receive an A.

After the first test the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. But, as the second test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too; so they studied little ...

The second Test average was a D! No one was happy. When the 3rd test rolled around the average was an F. The scores never increased as bickering, blame, name calling all resulted in hard feelings and no one would study for anyone else. All failed to their great surprise and the professor told them that socialism would ultimately fail because the harder to succeed the greater the reward but when a government takes all the reward away; no one will try or succeed.
 
"If you're not a socialist before you're twenty-five, you have no heart; if you are a socialist after twenty-five, you have no head", not sure who said it. I think socialism as an idea appeals to the young.

I think it's up there with smoking. For young people, it's not that smoking itself is cool, it's just that cool people smoke. It loses its allure eventually.
 
"If you're not a socialist before you're twenty-five, you have no heart; if you are a socialist after twenty-five, you have no head", not sure who said it.

“Any man under thirty who does not vote Labour has no heart, and any man over 30 who does not vote Conservative has no head”. It's often incorrectly attributed to Winston Churchill, but he never said it. I've a friend who was a Labour Party councillor in the UK. He said that if he had a pound for every time somebody quoted it to him when he was campaigning for Labour he would be a rich man.
 
“Any man under thirty who does not vote Labour has no heart, and any man over 30 who does not vote Conservative has no head”. It's often incorrectly attributed to Winston Churchill, but he never said it. I've a friend who was a Labour Party councillor in the UK. He said that if he had a pound for every time somebody quoted it to him when he was campaigning for Labour he would be a rich man.


Would he still be a socialist though?
 
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