Revenue says that someone on Jobseekers can't do voluntary work? unpaid work?

Demented1

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Hi.

This morning someone from Revenue called to the site where I am building my own house.

He had questions about the block layer so we answered them all, name, address, total cost of blocks, how much we had given to date.

He asked who was doing the roof. My partner told him himself and my brother were there today putting up joists. My brother is on social welfare as he cannot get a job. There is no money to give my brother he was doing it as a favour so we could get the joists done so the block layer could finish up. We do not have a mortgage and we and my kids live with my parent as we were trying to do the house bit by bit. My brother and partner were putting up joists yesterday, my brother offered to help as a favour as he knows there is no money.

The guy from revenue said even though money is not changing hands that you cannot help out on a job when on social welfare. My brother did voluntary work 2 days last week in his community and was told that is not allowed either?

Now I am worried we have gotten my own brother into trouble without even realising. He is going to go in and speak to social welfare and see what the story is. We have closed up the site which is not a problem but I am worried now he is in trouble. They were doing the joists so the block layer could come back to finish the gables. My brother also helped two days a few months ago when my partner and his brothers were digging the foundations.

Now have I got him in trouble by him helping us out? I feel awful that he was doing me a favour as he has a heart of gold and really would do anything for me and never ask anything in return and I accepted his help not knowing he wasn't allowed help out when no money was involved.

I have receipts for everything, all the materials and the labour that we have paid the block layer, plumber etc. We just gave nothing to the family members.
 
I am not an expert, but the test is that you must be available for work. It seems to me that your brother is available for work and his SW will not be affected.

I don't think he needs to go into the SW office. I think it's unlikely that the Revenue will follow up on this. But he might like to go into the SW office so that he can stop worrying about it.

Brendan
 
If someone on Jobseekers wants to do voluntary work they need to fill out a VW1 form and the request will be assessed.
 
He rang the local social welfare office and they said no he cannot do that and is meeting them this afternoon. He would have to sign off the days he was helping us out even though we would not be paying him. He is available for work and would love some as he is bored out of his mind with nothing to do. If he had a job he would not be helping us out or knowing him would help us out at weekends.

I really do not care if he stops helping as long as I haven't put him in trouble with a favour. He is telling me it's no big deal and I have nothing to be sorry for but I feel awful.

The revenue man told him he does not share information with social welfare but they have access to their files so that's why he contacted social welfare because he does not want to be in bother for something he genuinely did not know he was doing wrong.

Also can someone tell my why revenue visited us? I would understand a social welfare inspector calling to check we weren't hiring anyone on social welfare but I don't understand revenue calling?

We were approved for a mortgage of 112k BUT we had to go back to planning to make the house smaller, 1200 square foot to be approved or get a gift of 50k to keep going with the original planning along with our savings. Builders had quoted us 138k to build but the bank costed it at over 160k. So that is the reason we have no mortgage. We were told the other option rather than change plans was to go ahead with our savings and a personal loan the bank then gave us and come back to them when we ran out. So we were going to go back once the roof was on and the windows were in which in laws are helping us out with.

We never wanted to go direct labour route but I have another brother who had his own business in the building advising us and architect overseeing everything so that's why in the end we went this route when we couldn't get the gift they wanted.
 
Is what he was doing for us classed as voluntary work though?

I know what he was at last week in his community was voluntary because there was about four of them did it to tidy up the place. For us social welfare said he has to do something with an X and an O.

I am not worried about from here on out I will tell him not to worry about it he does not need to help.

I am worried I have gotten him in bother for yesterday and this morning, even though this morning they hadn't actually done any work.
 
Here are the operational guidelines on voluntary work for jobseekers, taken from welfare.ie

Voluntary Work

A jobseeker who engages in voluntary work within the State may continue to be entitled to a jobseekers payment provided that, in engaging in the voluntary work, they continue to satisfy the statutory conditions of being available for and genuinely seeking work.
Examples of voluntary work in which jobseekers may engage include
  • helping the sick, elderly or persons with a disability
  • assisting youth clubs, church groups, sports groups, cultural organisations, local resident associations
The groups involved may be nationally organised groups or local voluntary or community groups.
Aims of the Voluntary Work Option

The aim of the Voluntary Work Option is twofold, namely – to encourage voluntary organisations to involve jobseekers to the greatest extent possible in their existing activities by creating new opportunities for voluntary work and to inform jobseekers of their freedom to involve themselves in voluntary work and to encourage them to do so.
Applying for the Voluntary Work Option

The jobseeker or the voluntary organisation/group involved should request an application form VW 1 from the Local Office. The completed application form should be sent to the Local Office and a Deciding Officer will determine whether the customer may take up the work in question without affecting entitlement to the jobseekers payment.
Decisions in relation to Voluntary Work

In considering an application, the Deciding Officer will determine whether the work concerned is voluntary within the meaning of the scheme and whether the jobseeker would continue to satisfy the statutory conditions for getting the jobseekers payment. The Deciding Officer will need to be satisfied that the jobseeker is available to take up employment, if offered it, and that they are making genuine efforts to find work. This applies whether the voluntary work is full or part-time.
While it is not possible to lay down hard and fast rules as to what constitutes voluntary work the position should be clear in most cases. Factors to be taken into account will include:
  • the type of work involved,
  • the aims and standing of the voluntary body,
  • the weekly hours worked,
  • amount of any payment received by way of out-of-pocket expenses
The voluntary work would normally involve only a few hours a day or a few days a week but full-time involvement in voluntary activities would not necessarily be ruled out. However, there should be no implication of Job Replacement or Cheap Labour. Any payment for the voluntary work should generally be limited to out-of-pocket expenses such as travelling expenses or meal allowances.
 
Demented,
Your latter posts crossed with mine above - the guidelines above may answer your question as to whether the work done on your house qualifies as voluntary.
 
Sorry my heading was changed when it was moved. I didn't think what he was doing would be classed as voluntary.

Thank you for the information.

We were not stopping him being available for work. He said to us he would give us a hand putting up the joists so that the block layer could finish up with the gables.

I am really just nervous that i have gotten him in trouble with social welfare when he was doing me a favour. He doesn't seem to mind but it's me feels terrible.
 
HI gipimann

That is very helpful, but in practice if an unemployed person tidies up his local area , will the SW Inspector be interested?

If an unemployed freind of mine helps me to do the garden, is he really supposed to report that he was not available for work for that afternoon?

Brendan
 
I think revenue/social welfare are being overly pedantic in this case.

Once they established that it was a self-build then that should have been the end of it.

The rediculous thing is that the brother could be in trouble now having received nothing for helping out, yet he could have sat on his backside for the day and been given €100 by his sister and that would be fine.

Does a 19 year old lad living at home really have to notify social welfare and say "Today I cut the grass and my mother gave me a tenner"?

Jobsworthness* gone mad!

* I may have made up that word.
 
What is the definition of being "available for work" anyway? Unless your friend has signed a legal contract to spend the day helping you in your garden then there is nothing to stop him to walk away if a paid position becomes open on that day.
 
My brother could walk away at any time if he did get work. He is in his late 40's. If i had known he wasn't allowed i would told him to forget about it. I would understand if we had him at the site all day every day and getting him to do a mountain of work and taking away from him taking up employment. He says to me he will do as they say and sign off for whatever day he gives us a hand. But then if i was to give him a few bob to cover what he would be losing out on would i then become an employer. It's crazy because it was just a favour. He was actually losing money by helping me because he used a bit of petrol. I just feel awful that i have now put him in this position because of yesterday and this morning.
 
Does anyone know why revenue called in the first place anyway? Is there some bigger issue. The only labour we have got so far was the block layer and the plumber and i have receipts for any monies paid to them. The block layer does not get the last payment until the gables are finished and what has been paid to people is clear to see on bank statements. We have paid VAT on all materials and have all receipts. Is there something else we could be doing wrong that we have revenue call?
 
And another thing while i am paranoid. Down the line another brother and brother in law have offered to skim and scratch (i think thats it) the outside on the weekends. Again no payment. They are not on social welfare as they are employed themselves. Is that ok?
 
Does anyone know why revenue called in the first place anyway? Is there some bigger issue. The only labour we have got so far was the block layer and the plumber and i have receipts for any monies paid to them. The block layer does not get the last payment until the gables are finished and what has been paid to people is clear to see on bank statements. We have paid VAT on all materials and have all receipts. Is there something else we could be doing wrong that we have revenue call?

Revenue call into building sites to ensure that the contractors carrying on the works are registered for tax and paying income tax, VAT, RCT etc.

In other words they want to ensure that the people being paid the €100k+ that you're spending are declaring it for tax purposes, rather than operating in the "shadow economy".
 
I meant to say the revenue guy said it's not like he was walking a dog for us so it is different that he was doing a roof. My brother did roofs in england for 15 years and had been working on the buildings here when he moved back. So the revenue guy saw it as a skilled job and not the likes of walking a dog for someone. The revenue guy said he used to be a social welfare inspector himself and that it is not allowed but to double check himself. He believed there was no money changing hands but it is not allowed. He was very nice so i am not giving out about him. I am just kind of surprised that you can't help someone while on social welfare and i am annoyed with myself that i have brought all this on my brother when he could of just stayed at home and said tough crap do it yourselves.

So it is checking up on them and not us is it? We gave him the name of the block layer like he asked and the total cost and what has been paid to date. He never asked about the plumbing or anything else. Just who did the blocks and who is at the roof. So least then it's not something we have done to make him call?

My partner and i are not clued up on social welfare at all. I didn't even apply for maternity benefit on my two kids, i went back to work when they were a week and 3 weeks old even though i would of got more on maternity. It never crossed my mind that someone on jobseekers could not do something for free. I thought you would sign off if you were getting paid for work but if you were getting nothing you could do it. I should have looked into it i know. I wouldn't mind getting myself in trouble but not when i have got someone else in bother.

I will update later
 
No- nothing you did.

Myself and my father were getting dormer windows put into a holiday house and we hired a carpenter to do the timberwork. He had a helper with him.

The four of us were up on the roof when I noticed the helper mutter "Oh f**k" and disappear through the hole in the roof into the house. Next think I saw him off up the fields behind the house, just as an ordinary looking car pulled up outside. Turned out it was the social welfare doing a check once they saw work going on.

Carperner was fully compliant and helper was never caught. :)
 
-Revenue have every right and really should check out people working at the types of jobs you describe.

Building work is one of the biggest sources of black labour. Not only does black labour deprive the nation of much needed revenue, it makes the rest of us pay more.

More important it causes genuine tax-compliant craftsmen to go out of business. They just can't compete with the cash-in-hand builders (I use the term "builder" to encompass all types of crafts).

Now, it is often the excuse of these people to claim they're "just helping out" their friend, brother, etc. And it's only natural -and the duty - of the Revenue guy to check the veracity of those statements. Otherwise any cash-in-hand nixer could get away with it for ever.

I'm only saying all this because ,as much as your own situation seems crazy -genuine professionals working for nothing - Revenue's interest is based on common sense and much needed control of the black economy.

It doesn't solve your problem but may better help you understand it.
 
I do understand that as it is what put three of my own brothers out of business, that and one guy they done work for who did them over.

I can understand them coming in to check up everything is legit. I am just a bit surprised that a family member can't do you a favour if claiming social welfare and i may have got someone in bother for it.

Thanks everyone. Will update later as to what they say in case anyone ever googles and has the same issue
 
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