Discussion in 'Issues with tracker mortgages' started by Batesy, Apr 13, 2010.
Deleted as not relevant
I note on the conditions of the PTSB tracker contract in 2008 that the prevailing tracker rate was to apply after the initial discount period (12 months). No mention of SVR or fixed rates etc. just prevailing ptsb tracker rate.
Was it standard for PTSB to then provide numerous rate options to the Borrower (on an unsolicitated basis) prior to the discounted period coming to an end? ( ie: numerous fixed rates/SVR/ tracker rate).
Hi, has it been established whether the central bank are reviewing these cases? in my instance, the contract stated that after a 12 month discount period, the then prevailing tracker rate was to be applied. No mention of alternative rates such as fixed or LTV variable rates on the original contract.
Instead of simply applying the rate as per the contract, ptsb sent a letter at 11 months including what transpired to be a temporarily low LTV Variable rate to lure me off the tracker rate. They then ramped up the LTV Variable rate in subsequent years. With hindsight, it was a clear exercise to remove people off trackers under the guise of an "options" letter, that was never to be issued under the contract.
This was a blatent breach of consumer protection code sending an unsolicitated offer of alternative interest rates without clear wording on the risk of taking the LTV variable rate.
any other views/ info on these cases?
When did you receive that letter from PTSB?
If you received that letter in Q3 2008 then I think you might be on to something and should definitely pursue it with the Central Bank/FSO.
Mortgage drawn in 2008 and options letter issued in 2009.
I'm raising this with FSO alright and feel very stupid not to have read back and reviewed the documentation years ago. If the contract were not so definitive that the prevailing tracker rate was to apply, then I would not be questioning and disputing their actions.
In the same boat as PFS ( see my earlier post above from 2015)
Had FSO rule in favour of PTSB when I took this case to them in 2012, but a lot has been uncovered nationally with banks/trackers since then.
Without doubt by bumping up tracker rates in 2008/2009 slightly higher every time than the LTV there was a calculated effort by PTSB to induce customers off or away from choosing trackers.
The fact that in most contracts it stated tracker rates had to be offered at the end of a fixed term, these rates were inflated to persuade people from opting for them.
I am still wondering if the CB investigation is only for customers who broke from a fixed contract early or if it now includes all mortgages from that time period whom had a tracker option on their letter of offer but didn't get it??
I'm afraid I have no visibility on the Central Bank's review exercise, which seems to lack any meaningful transparency.
This "Key Post" may be of interest given your circumstances.
I understand that Padraig Kissane is coordinating a number of legal cases on the "prevailing" tracker rate issue but if you opted for an LTV variable rate I'm not sure that would be of much relevance to you.
thanks for that, yes its a different issue that I have. Namely that my original contract states the prevailing tracker rate would apply upon completion of the initial discount rate period. No reference to having to make a seperate decision re : rate type upon expiry of the discounted rate.
PTSB subsequently wrote out 11 months later with a misleading letter referring to my current option having expired and that I needed to select new rate option going forward. I made mistake of taking that letter at face value and in good faith. under the contract, no such options letter should have issued. Noting the options letter contained a misleading low ltv variable simply to lure customer off the tracker. I'm sure there are numerous people who took out mortgage in 2008 with ptsb in the same boat.
Ah, I see - thanks for the follow up PFS.
When you say you had a 12-month discounted rate, was this discounted rate fixed for the 12 months or was it a fixed discount to the margin over the ECB that would otherwise have applied?
Yes, it was a discounted tracker rate to convert to the then prevailing tracker rate after twelve months.
That sounds very odd - why would you "convert" to a "prevailing" tracker rate when the discount period came to an end? Surely the applicable margin and reference rate at the end of the discount period were hard wired at the outset (how else would you determine the discount?) so the "prevailing" tracker rate offered by PTSB to other customers at that stage is irrelevant?
I think you might be well advised to run the documentation by a solicitor before proceeding - but it certainly sounds like you have good grounds for a complaint to the FSO. I wouldn't rely on the current review process.
its gone to FSO Sarenco and solicitor has looked at it.. these contracts and ptsb's actions were shoddy on a few different issues here. its something of a bad joke were it not so serious in its impact on people
Best of luck with your complaint - do let us know how you get on.
I took out a 'discounted tracker' (ECB +0.6) with ptsb in 2008 and believed at the outset it would return to the prediscount rate which was 0.8. The contract was very unclear on that and quoted the 'prevailing tracker rate', which I took to mean 0.8 in my case. At the end of the discount period they offered me an ECB + 2.45 tracker or a lower variable rate which i moved to under duress. I took my case to the ombudsman claiming they mis-sold me what turned out to be a one year tracker - like a 1 year fixed. At no time did they say i was taking out a 1 year product. The ombudsman found against me but Padraic Kissane, who represents me now, says I have a very valid case. My case is now with the Central Bank as part of the PTSB review. I have not found any others like me among the lost tracker mortgage cases. I believe that discounted trackers existed before 2008 where the tracker rate WAS restored after the discount period. It seems they changed the contracts in 2008 without really explaining to customers what they were doing and also . However the example in my contract of ffollow on payments is for a tracker of ECB +0.8. It would be great to find more people like us .
Can you reproduce the exact wording?
It should mention a default. For example "At the end of your fixed rate period we will offer you a choice of rates. If you do not reply, you will default to the prevailing tracker rate" or "At the end of your fixed rate period we will offer you a choice of rates. If you do not reply, you will default to the standard variable rate"
Hi again PFS,
I just replied to another of your posts and then found this thread.
I definitely agree with Sarenco that 'discounted' in my understanding means discounted off an original value. Thats why I think we have good grounds against PTSB for the obscure way they wrote the contracts for these discounted trackers in 2008. I went to the ombudsnman straight away but they found in favour of PTSB, adding further distress. I thought all was lost until i spoke to Padric Kissane last year when the fixed rate/tracker issues were making headlines. My case is now with the Central Bank and I have been told by PTSB that I should hear something by end Feb/March when they expect CB to have completed this stage of the PTSB review.
Good luck with FSO. Will be eager to hear how that goes.
wording on contract: " the interest rate applicable to this tracker loan may be varied by ptsb provided it will not exceed 0.75% over ecb refi rate for the first 12 months (the discount period) from the date of loan issue. the ecb rate may be varied from time to time by the ecb. in the event of any variation of the ecb rate during the discount period, the interest rate will not be more than 0.75% over the ecb rate as varied by the ecb. ptsb reserves the right to alter the said percentage over the ecb rate at any time prior to drawdown. on expiry of the discount period, the interest rate will be the then current ptsb tracker mortgage rate comprising a certain percentage over the ecb rate) appropriate to the loan as may be varied in accordance with variations to the ecb rate. in the event of any variation of the ecb rate the revised interest rate will apply not later than 1 calender month from the effective date provided by the ecb"
there was no fixed rate period. no reference to options that would be given. simply a Tracker Mortgage. and no justification for issuing "options letter" stating current rate option was to expire etc.
Brendan, curious as to why you ask for the exact wording on interest rate clause ? I dont understand why you state "there should be a default" or why you are referring to fixed rate period?
Separate names with a comma.