Overwhelming business & personal debt: solutions? including UK bankrupcy.

Hi Bronte, back on here after few months trying to avoid reality. Have made up my mind now to do it. The two debts are for previous business I had before I had to close down. I don't think I gave personal guarantees, but I was a sole trader at the time not a limited company. Both of these are now registered judgment mortgages.
 
Also what is the difference between secure or unsecured debts? Which ones are not covered by bankruptcy and would my house be one if I just handed back keys?
 
Secured debts are those debts which, like your mortgage, are backed by an asset. Unsecured are not backed by an asset. However some of you debt which was unsecured is now secured by the mechanism of the judgement mortgage.

Bankruptcy should cover all your debts.

Would your house be one what? The mortgages on your house are secured to that house irrespective of who you give the keys to ("hand back" is incorrect unless the bank sold the house to you).
 
Hi so - crates,
think I read somewhere bankruptcy only covers unsecured debts.
So would it not cover mortgage? But if u give back keys then what? Or is it better to be evicted?
 
That is not my understanding of bankruptcy but the family home is afforded more protection under the law than other debts. Have a read through the articles here

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/personal_finance/debt/

Like I said you can't "give back" the keys to the bank, the bank never owned your property and they didn't sell it to you. If you opt to surrender possession of your home to the bank, the bank try to sell it to recoup the money owed, it is usually not considered a good idea because the bank will generally go for a quick sale and will not get the best price for it - so you end up owing more than if you sold it yourself. The amount outstanding is still owed by you but would be unsecured as there would be nothing to secure it against. Judgement mortgages complicate that picture.
 
newlife said:
Hi so - crates,
think I read somewhere bankruptcy only covers unsecured debts.
So would it not cover mortgage? But if u give back keys then what? Or is it better to be evicted?
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hi just read through all this thread, OP considering the amount of debt , if i was in your shoes, i would immediately stop paying all debts, mortgage etc and build up some cash , in order to get yourself started, and established in the uk.. then declare bankrupt....

it is an unfortunate situation that you are in, and I wish you the best, however , remember this, you are not the only one, there are many others in a worse off state than you.. make 2012 the year of change, and to get yourself sorted .. it is hard indeed but by putting it off, you are only postponing the inevitable and adding extra charges, and stress and worry.

I wish you all the best ,
 
Hi Newlife, I am in the same situation, probably about 9 months behind you. My plan is my kilds will start the next school year in the UK(no sure about the North or London, depends where I can get some work. I am going to start working on my COMI now, opening a bank account, social security number ect.

It would be nice to hear from some people who have gone through the process. My own feeling is that people are waiting to see what the new insolvency legislation offers.

Best of luck if you go ahead with it.
 
newlife said:
Hi Bronte, back on here after few months trying to avoid reality. Have made up my mind now to do it. The two debts are for previous business I had before I had to close down. I don't think I gave personal guarantees, but I was a sole trader at the time not a limited company. Both of these are now registered judgment mortgages.
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Hi Newlife, thought you'd be writing to us from the UK by now. Why on earth did you not go? Maybe the stress is wearing you down and you are unable to make decisions. Unable to see what you need to do. You certainly ought to make a new life for yourself. Steve Thatcher knows his stuff on UK bankruptcy, I recommend you contact him, he seems to have a lot of Irish clients, plus he has been very informative and helpful on here and believe me there are lot of Irish people going down the UK bankruptcy route as our government cannot seem to get it's act together on reforming our draconian system of 12 year bankruptcy only available to the wealthy.

After you've settled in the UK and are fully discharged with your business experience and even with your going into debt experience you can start a new business. Make the decision now to free yourself from the hell you must be in.

Did you go to a solicitior and did you get proper advice on the UK route. I'd be surprised if there were many Irish solicitors who know about UK bankruptcy. Please post back on the progress you make and read the posts on here on Uk bankruptcy or read the papers which were full of an another Irish developer who's gone down the UK bankruptcy route. Those boys are smart follow where they go, they have the best advice, just copy them.
 
Hi again so-crates,
Thank you so much for your advice here and apologies if i appear a bit slow at grasping the info. my brain is fried at this point!
You say if I 'give back the keys' so to speak, (I understand what your saying here, and believe me if i could sell i would) then the bank will sell and I will of course be left with the short fall. This becomes, as you say 'unsecured' debt,because I no longer have an asset. Therefore my question is, is that not okay for me if I plan to go bankrupt? Also, I have three judgements now on my home, can I do that still?
Just trying to understand how to go about it, do I tell the bank my plans or not?
Thank you for your time,
Newlife
 
iamthemoney said:
hi just read through all this thread, OP considering the amount of debt , if i was in your shoes, i would immediately stop paying all debts, mortgage etc and build up some cash , in order to get yourself started, and established in the uk.. then declare bankrupt....
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Hi and thanks for your words,
I am determined to make this year a better one then the last!
regarding your comment, I was thinking the same but am a bit nervous of doing so. I was worried that may appear as 'fraudulent'or something, seen as still working and paying 'most' daily bills at moment.
I also am paying a few of my debts, a small monthly arrangement and i also have recently been given a court order to pay one of them, and think another one coming soon as have to go to court again in two weeks.
Therefore i am worried particularly about these, what would happen if i didnt pay them? And if i left country and went to England in the months establishing my COMI, would I not be still liable to pay these?
pheeew, what a nightmare!
Thanks in advance,
newlife
 
Artemis said:
Hi Newlife, I am in the same situation, probably about 9 months behind you. My plan is my kilds will start the next school year in the UK(no sure about the North or London, depends where I can get some work. I am going to start working on my COMI now, opening a bank account, social security number ect.
Click to expand...

It would be nice to hear from some people who have gone through the process. My own feeling is that people are waiting to see what the new insolvency legislation offers.

Hi Artemis,
thanks for support and sorry to hear you are in the same boat as myself,
(I guess I am lucky, as I dont have kids), must be even harder for yourself.
You say you are going to start working on your COMI, etc. Can you do some of that from here? or do you have to wait until you move over?
I am trying to plan move for Summer, but need to sort out house, etc first.
thanks Newlife
 
Hi Bronte,
Thank you so much for your kind and encouraging words.
Yes, i have delayed my progress, due to ridiculous rationalizing and trying to make believe it would just go away, but its not.
Had a humiliating morning in court about a month ago, with all the local gossips and many previous Solicitors I used to do business, enjoy and revel in my embarrasment and tears when the Judge decided to give me a Court order to pay a monthly amount, to one of my debtors (electricity company) even after seeing my Statement of Means (helped by Mabs) showing already a minus figure.
Also, I spent €350 for a 45min consultation, (after talking twice to Free legal Aid also) with a leading Solicitor Firm in Dublin which was a total waste of time and money.
Could get no concrete answers from them and they offered no advice for UK and Bankruptcy, only saying they could of course recommend a good UK advice firm).
i give up...
Determined to go and start afresh,
will definitely speak to Steve Thatcher,
Thanks so much,
Newlife
 
newlife said:
Yes, i have delayed my progress, due to ridiculous rationalizing and trying to make believe it would just go away, but its not.
Had a humiliating morning in court about a month ago, with all the local gossips and many previous Solicitors I used to do business, enjoy and revel in my embarrasment and tears when the Judge decided to give me a Court order to pay a monthly amount,
Click to expand...

That's very sad Newlife. Why don't you start today to make the new life for yourself. Contact Steve Thatcher, read his posts, they are most informative. Ask questions on here.

It seems to me you need to get away from small town Ireland, for a year or two. It will give you a clearer head in a country that does not judge you on whether you are a bankrupt or not.

What you need to do is pack up your belongings and just go, that's a start, then you can in the UK let the receiver/bankrupcy process deal with all your creditors including your mortgage bank. The first step is the hardest, moving to the UK. It is not fraudulent, you are legally entitled to do this. Probably because you are so stressed, and maybe freightened of going to the UK, could you try to think of what the worst possible thing a bank/creditor can do to you that they haven't already done, and they have done their worst believe me, and work back from that. You're already at the worst point, making the decision to go will be the best decision you will make because there is absolutely no way you will ever be able to get out of the financial mess you are in other than to go bankrupt UK style. There is no need for you to endure any more pain.

Get some money together, take all your belongings, rent in the UK, try and get a job and apply for bankruptcy.
 
Hi and thanks,
Sorry again to keep looking for clarification but if I go to UK, do I still have to pay Court Order installments in the interim before Bankruptcy?
Also, if I stop paying mortgage etc now so as to build up some cash, can I get into trouble as they would know I am still working?
Also, can I set up Bank account, identity number, etc from here or do I need a UK address to be living at before I can start?
Also, if I apply for a Job in the Uk from here do i have to have a UK address at the time?
I am sure will think of more questions soon!
Thanks...
 
Obviously you can apply for a job in the UK from Ireland. You will need to get the equivelent of a PRSI number when you go there, that should be a fairly simple procedure for an Irish person. Every large city in Ireland has an office to help people moving abroad. Not sure anymore what they are called but your local citizen's advice center should know. Also I think on AAM there are specific threads on moving to different countries.

You'll need a deposit, rent for a few months, or I guess you can go on the dole over there to start off with until you find a job. Also in London there is an Irish center, you could make contact there, maybe they have Irish people who need someone to houseshare. Do you not know anyone in London, relations, grand aunt etc. Being logical you need to have some money, 3 to 6 months worth. If that means you cease paying your mortgage so be it. All they will do initially is send you letters. I would continue with the court ordered instalments until you leave. Have you read all the informative posts on here on this issue of UK bankruptcy.
 
Hello newlife, I am sorry that you were not able to resolve matters.
So you are off the the UK.
Your main concern is the house. In simple terms you can do any of the things with the house that you mentioned.
It is simplest to tell the bank your plans. I suspect that this will be the norm now after the Sean Quinn jdgment.They can then ask you to hand the keys back or take steps to repossess. There is no point in paying a mortgage on a property which you are not going to own. It makes no difference to you if your mortgage shortfall is €275k or €285k.
You can go bankrupt even if the shortfall on the mortgage is not known. If the property is still in your name when you go bankrupt, it will vest in the Official Receiver (official assignee). He will hand it back to the bank to sell and he will write off any shortfall in due course.
You will be bankrupt for just a year. Even if your property has not been dealt with by time you are out of bankruptcy, you are still not liable for the losses.

Let me know if I can help further

Steve
 
Steve, have you any idea what Newlife should do about the court ordered instalment order? Should she continue to pay for this until she leaves, maybe she should apply, once she ceases employment in Ireland, to have it changed to zero due to having no income? I'm aware you're in the UK, but Newlife is worried so as not to do anything wrong and get into trouble, as they Judges do occasionally jail people here if they don't follow court orders.
 
Bronte said:
Steve, have you any idea what Newlife should do about the court ordered instalment order? Should she continue to pay for this until she leaves, maybe she should apply, once she ceases employment in Ireland, to have it changed to zero due to having no income? I'm aware you're in the UK, but Newlife is worried so as not to do anything wrong and get into trouble, as they Judges do occasionally jail people here if they don't follow court orders.
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Hi everyone, my general advice when taking someone tghrough bankruptcy is to advise them to stop making creditor payments, especially if this is only going to be for a few months.
The effect of not making the payments will be that creditors will put you on a call list and start sending some chasing letters. What they will not do for some time is take action to collect the debt. At least that is the Uk experience. From anocdotal evidence I am hearing from the Republic, some secured lenders are taking months and months to do anything, even write.

I would be hesitant about breaching a court order. How much is that oayment each month? Could it be easily handled if the mortgage and other debts weren't paid? Could the money saved on the mortgage and the debts then be squirreled away to pay for UK set up costs and the bankruptcy?

Am I ok to suggest newlife contact me direct?
Steve
 
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