NI bankruptcy

D

Defeated

Registered User
Messages
18
Hi, sorry my first post is asking for help.. Ive spent months trying to figure out what to do with whats left of my life, i currently have debts of over €310,000 euro's.

Basically like most of people my age (34) who live in Ireland i followed the herd and got on the property ladder as renting was a waste of money apparently as far as most people were concerned in the "Celtic Tiger" days.

I was self employed worked hard and made decent money and my partner worked and had a reasonable income. I had to pack in my job due to not making enough to live on never mind paying bills when everything slowed down, and my ex lost her job also.

As it stands at this moment in time i have so far lost my partner due to the stress and strains of financial hardship and as the username suggests ive finally admitted to myself that paying back what i owe is never going to be in anyway possible even if i live to 100.


We have two young kids and i really do not want to go to the uk for the obvious reason of seeing my children regularly, and to make things just that little bit more awkward the job im currently doing is "classed as self employed" and once i start down the bankruptcy route i am 99.9% sure i will be either sacked or kindly asked to relinquish my position. (I do not want to say what my current job is)

I basically do not want to chance filing for bankruptcy in Ireland as the 3 years is ok BUT it's the possibility of it being 8 years i just cant cope with that gamble. Its taken a hell of a lot to post this and pride swallowing to finally admit defeat, and while for a short while i still have the keys to my abandoned house (Bought for 320,000 and the local council bought a neighbor's home for €74,500)

I will basically lose my job, house, i have already lost my family in the sense of the words, i have a stack of demands ect

I currently earn approx €300-€340 euro's per week and have over €300,000 debt. I cannot repay it and am not looking for an easy way out by filing for bankruptcy i need to do this to get some sort of a life back.

I have drove for a living from the day i got my license at 17, and the chances of getting a job in either the uk or up north is most likely impossible.


As said how do i even start with a "COMI" with no money and as soon as i apply for bankruptcy no job how can i start fresh again. Ive no family in the north or UK either.

Can somebody please explain notifying you're creditors you are filing for bankruptcy in the UK, what is involved.

Sorry if im rambling on abit..

Regards,

Defeated.
 
Hi Defeated,

I am sorry to hear you find yourself in such straits, hopefully your post will mark a turning point for you. You have decided that you are insolvent and that you need to resolve that. I think you are saying that for family reasons you would prefer if you could avail of insolvency in Ireland but for work reasons you believe this would worsen your situation? This leaves you in a bind obviously.

Can I suggest that perhaps before making that decision you have a look at the ISI website, through the key posts here and perhaps have a conversation with a PIP to find out if an arrangement in Ireland would be workable for you?

Also given you have a property with your ex-partner have you discussed with her? I know that conversation would be far from easy but I think it needs to be had.

As to starting afresh in a new country, in order to establish yourself you will need to build up a cash fund, you will have unavoidable expenses in terms of moving, accommodation and living money while you find a new job. If you don't have relatives that would be able to help you out with accommodation identify where you plan to be, work out how much you will need for accommodation and deposit and use that as the starting point for how much you need to save.
 
There's plenty more left of your life, you've got kids, trust me, they will want you to be part of their life, presumable you also have other family. Are you talking to someone, a sibling or mother perhaps that can help you see through the current mess you are in. It's very important to talk to someone, don't underestimate how important it is.

And don't think that you are defeated. By posting on here and by actually dealing with the problems, you're on the first step to getting back on your feet. It might seem like rock bottom right now but it will get better.

You seem not to want to go via Irish insolvency, could you not go to the UK for bankruptcy there. It's a relatively short period of time, 12 to 18 months if you organise yourself properly. There are loads on threads on here on UK bankruptcy. I'm sure you could fly back on occasion to see your kids.

Can you confirm that nobody is living in your home, what has the bank written to you about the non payment of the mortgage? I presume your ex is renting ?
 
Thanks for the replies, my ex partner is living with her parents for just over 2 years, im living in a relative's for the last 16-17 months since i abandoned my house but there son is moving back home so i need to move on. I cannot afford to rent anywhere on my wage and out of what little wage i have i have maintanence and MABS payments to make which basically pushes me under what i would have if i was on unemployment benefit. Going to the UK seems to be easier to declare bankruptcy than up north, but i would really rather be 2-2.5 hours drive from my kids, it would make it easier i think if i knew they were only a few hours drive away than the cost of coming home frequently from the UK which unless i got a job i would not be able to do.

I have spoken to an advisor about being insolvent and with my wage im under what the monthly allowance they allow you to keep per month so i cant go down that route, its bankruptcy either here in Ireland or in the UK jurisdiction. But it is the up to 8 years which i dont want to risk here in Ireland. If i have no choice but to go into bankruptcy i want it over as quick as possible to be perfectly honest, i dont want the chance of it lingering for maybe 8 years.

Regards,

Defeated
 
Hi Defeated, hard times, I think it's definitely UK for you if you can handle it. I think getting it over while the kids are young is a good idea. Chin up. The darkest hour is before the dawn. Once you make a decision you are taking control, once you feel in control you will feel more able to move forward. From what I have read on this site, the hardest part of a UK bankruptcy is the waiting around counting down week after week month after month.i know of a person who got a night job also rather than be on his own.
 
Hi Cantalia, working nights ect is not a problem ive done anti-social hours for 8 years before so it would not cost me a thought to do hours not many will like.
 
Can I ask why you have abandoned the property? Is it habitable? Would it be feasible to move back there in the short term at least? After all, I am guessing you are paying something for it at the moment under your arrangement with MABS.

For yourself you need to do three things today
1) Look at what work is available in the North - you are best placed to know what you can do so you can have a look at that (I don't know the best website but try jobs.ie, monster.ie, daft.ie and googling for other sites)
2) Look at what accommodation is available in the North - I did a quick search on Daft and I found house shares in Belfast from £150pm
3) Look at your budget and work out where you can set aside €10 this week to start a nest egg for you to move with. It isn't much but you have to start somewhere.
 
So-crates, i abandoned the property to move back to dublin, when you take the drive approx 70-75 minutes to the office from where the house is and my wage it just is not feasible to commute, i actually cant afford to pay esb and oil diesel for work ect if living there, the main reason i abandoned the property was Ulster banks attitude after i jumped through there many hoops to prove i could not afford the full mortgage there problem solving came up with knocking what worked out at €52 a month off the mortgage!!

After a second meeting with one of their "mortgage advisors" I put forward a plan to rent the property and albeit at less than mortgage amount as approx €500 was the max achievable in the area (mortgage repayments were approx €960 PM) at this time maybe 2 years ago now, his reply was im not even going to consider wasting the underwriters time by putting this forward!!!!

My response was what do you propose i do now, to which i was told there was two choices, voluntary surrender or repossession.. At this point the mortgage was no more than €4000 in arrears.

My response to this "mortgage advisor" was while i was sitting in the office with him was i began to remove my car key from my house keys, to which he replied what are you doing, i said there is the keys you're welcome to the house, i walked out of the meeting and he asked the security to more or less keep me in the branch till i took back the keys...

I received a phone call maybe 4 months later which i have recorded on my phone from the man who was then assigned to "help me with the mortgage" from ulster bank, to this day he has yet to call me back again after our phone conversation and i did repeatedly reiterated the fact i handed over the keys and they were not accepted by the previous ulster bank employe.

Bar winning €5000-€8000 somehow the house is not habitable as it is unfurnished now and dampness has started setting in on the walls..

On the MABS point i had to leave the mortgage out of our arrangement as i was just after starting work again and when the mabs advisor added up income and outgoings even she admitted there was not much that could be done with the money i had, i have agreements with all unsecured debts through mabs but the mortgage is never going to be paid again with the money im working with. As it stands the mabs agreements will most likely last as long as i live as the interest is more combined per week than i can pay.

My car is the only possession i have left as i need it to work, but if im going to the uk i will be selling it and using that money to relocate worth maybe €4000ish
 
That sounds like an extremely raw deal and shoddy treatment on the part of Ulster Bank. Though without having been there it is hard to not view it through the emotionally charged lens that you would naturally have experienced it. It does put the kibosh on any suggestion of taking up residence in your former home in the short term given you can no longer stay where you are staying and it does lend more urgency to putting a more permanent arrangement in place.

Have you had an opportunity to investigate job opportunities in the North?

Given you said previously that you depend on driving for your current post would the sale of your car hamstring you in gaining employment?
 
Hi Defeated, you may be defeated in a few battles but there's a war out there that you can win.Firstly to get some real replies you need to clarify your situation by filling in the following; http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=170704
A couple of things jump out at me, is the mortgage jointly held with your partner? If it is the shortfall on any dealings will pass to her. You will need to sort this with her and not alone if this is the case.
I'm not really sure if it is still the case, but Steve Thatcher (a regular poster on here regarding bankruptcy ) seemed to be having problems with people, after a seperation, moving to the north to file for bankruptcy. The process was being delayed by the judge until direction was recieved from the EU. At one stage Steve refused to deal with any seperated people with the other half living in the south. If this is still the case a UK bankruptcy would be the better option.
Also on the car, if you file for bankruptcy it is very likely the car will have to go and a cheaper one purchased. If you decide on the UK route it is better to sell it anyway and buy over there and I wouldn't spend any more than 2k on one,it is a buyers market, I've been looking myself.
 
Defeated you said you handed over the keys and they were not accepted. Send them by registered post. Keep the receipt. Send them a copy of the receipt a week later.
I would have thought a bank is not allowed to refuse the surrender of a property by so declaring and handing in the keys?? Does anyone know?
 
I don't believe NI bankruptcy is an option for you, because it has been pointed out by those who deal with bankruptcy, particularly Steve Thatcher on this website that a man in the situation the OP is in will not work, as he is separated and has kids in the republic. A single man with no ties, or a married man who moved his whole family North would work.

Therefore his option is UK bankruptcy. It's the quickest easiest and simplest. Yes it's going to be a hell of a year for you, but haven't you lived through far worse in the last couple of years.

I don't agree with the advice on renting out the house, Ulster bank already rejected this offer from you, but in any case, as a landlord myself, it's not just simple a matter of paying the rent as mortgage to the bank. You'll run into all sorts of costs, NPPR, PRTB, tax, the list is endless. Despite what many people think, there is a cost to being a landlord. Furthermore, the rent is way below the mortgage, all you'd be doing is running up more and more arrears.

You need to be VERY careful about handing back the keys. As this could impact future entitlement to rent allowance from social welfare. So it could be that repossession is better for you.

I'm not a bit surprised at Ulster banks attitude to you. They are a waste of space. It's all about shifting goalposts and avoiding crystalisation of their losses.

Some questions.

You are entitled to a basic standard of living, including renting your own place. How come Mabs did not take this into account. Could you please do the money makeover thread as it will give us a better idea of your finances. Are you sure you would get 4K for the car. Have you made a list of what you will need to have financially to live in the UK for a year. I think the advice of getting some kind of job over there is a good one. You are allowed hold down a job in the UK while you go bankrupt. When you've come up with a figure of how much you need you may need to consider stop paying the Mabs amount in order to build up enough cash. While the kids are young is a very good time to go. Think of the positive, in 18 months you come back debt free, you can start again, you're relatively young and you can then contribute to your family in a more meaningful way, rather than being at the mercy of the bank, their attitude, and robbing peter to pay paul. That is not healthy.
 
I would like to second that point on the mabs payments, you are insolvent, you need to save as much as you can to fund a move to the UK if that is what you finally decide on, it's not cheap.So stop paying your creditors as agreed with mabs.
 
Income details
Net:Commision based, from €290-€330 ish per week

Income history: Self employed taxi driver, surrendered licence in early 2010, and became "unemployed" Resumed work in my current job may 2012.

Net income: As above

Income history: As taxi driver at time of mortgage €1000 upwards per week


Personal circumstances so we can calculate your reasonable living expenses
The Insolvency Service has published Guidelines for reasonable living expenses based on the family size, whether or not you need a car for work, childcare costs and other exceptional circumstances. By filling in this information, we (or you ) can calculate what your reasonable monthly living expenses should be.
One adult family or two adult family: No longer with partner, as much access to the children as i want, thank god.

Do you need a car for work or do you use public transport? Car needed for work
Number of children 0- 2 years old: 0
Number of 3 years old children: 0
Number of 4 - 11 years old: TWO
Number of 12 - 18 years old: 0
Monthly childcare costs:
Montly spend on special circumstances: e.g. exceptional healthcare costs



Home loan
Lender: Ulster bank
Amount outstanding: 255,000
Value of home: sub 100,000
Interest rate: specify whether tracker or SVR or fixed rate: Tracker
Monthly repayment: €870 from memory
Amount in arrears 18,600

Summary of discussions and agreements with the bank e.g. in Marp since Jan 2011 . Have been on interest only since then.
Mentioned in this thread..



Credit Union €48,000 at time of first missed payment
Amount of shares: Unknown as i think they put any shares i had off my arrears when i fell into arrears then new agreement which i knew i would not be able to make was signed.
Amount of loan outstanding: Unknown as ive not received any statements and MABS handle there payment.
Monthly repayment: €160 a month through mabs
Term left: Forever, 12 years i think if paid what i should pay per week


Other loans and creditors - delete those which don't apply to you
Overdraft - amount outstanding: €780
Credit Card - amount outstanding €800
Credit Card - monthly amount you are paying €3-4 euro through mabs
Term loan Amount outstanding: €4,500
Term loan term left 3 years over due
Term loan - monthly repayment: €6-7 through mabs
Term loan - interest rate
Family loan - amount outstanding: Nothing in anyway bar borrowing 20-30 here and there till payday.
Family loan - monthly repayment

Other savings and investments: 0


How important is retaining the family home to you? Absolutely no importance at this stage.

Which of the following best describes your situation?

I don't care about keeping the family home.



Any other relevant information

What is your preferred realistic outcome?
I will never be in a position to repay all outstanding debts in any reasonable non lifetime terms, I would just like to be able to sleep at night for a change, not looking for a miracle just trying to re start my life.
 
I will reply as best i can one by one, update! through a friend ive had from 2-3 years of age, he actually had a family member who deals with finance, he called to where i am staying on wednesday after i collected the last 3 months post from my abandoned home, and took one look at me and the post and rang his family member

His family member called out last night and was an absolute gent. He advised against doing anything in northern ireland and if i go the bankruptcy route to only do so in mainland UK.

We discussed my income and all outstanding debts ect and insolvency is a non runner as i earn below the monthly allowance they allow as i more or less do with irish bankruptcy, therefor i would be unable to put anything towards the debts.

Irish bankruptcy he seemed to think was the obvious choice to stay close to my children but i think i will be heading to the UK im just convincing myself its the best thing to do at present and hoping to convince myself of this, i suppose a healthy functioning father with the chance to start again in 16-17 months is better for them in the long run!
 
so-crates said:
That sounds like an extremely raw deal and shoddy treatment on the part of Ulster Bank. Though without having been there it is hard to not view it through the emotionally charged lens that you would naturally have experienced it. It does put the kibosh on any suggestion of taking up residence in your former home in the short term given you can no longer stay where you are staying and it does lend more urgency to putting a more permanent arrangement in place.

Have you had an opportunity to investigate job opportunities in the North?

Given you said previously that you depend on driving for your current post would the sale of your car hamstring you in gaining employment?
Click to expand...

Yes all my dealings with ulster bank have been laughable to be honest, it amazes me still that now they want to start repossession proceedings having rejected the keys some 2 years ago!!

Losing the car to start again does not worry me at this stage, only if i stay in ireland will i need it.

JayPee said:
Hi Defeated, you may be defeated in a few battles but there's a war out there that you can win.Firstly to get some real replies you need to clarify your situation by filling in the following
A couple of things jump out at me, is the mortgage jointly held with your partner? If it is the shortfall on any dealings will pass to her. You will need to sort this with her and not alone if this is the case.
I'm not really sure if it is still the case, but Steve Thatcher (a regular poster on here regarding bankruptcy ) seemed to be having problems with people, after a seperation, moving to the north to file for bankruptcy. The process was being delayed by the judge until direction was recieved from the EU. At one stage Steve refused to deal with any seperated people with the other half living in the south. If this is still the case a UK bankruptcy would be the better option.
Also on the car, if you file for bankruptcy it is very likely the car will have to go and a cheaper one purchased. If you decide on the UK route it is better to sell it anyway and buy over there and I wouldn't spend any more than 2k on one,it is a buyers market, I've been looking myself.
Click to expand...

Jointly held mortgage, however i am blessed as we get on with each other still, we split over stress and financial strains which caused constant silly row's as anyone who's been there will know how it goes, but there is no animosity between us, im meeting her over the weekend to see how we can jointly resolve our mortgage problem, it is possible she may apply for bankruptcy in ireland, however i do not know if me doing it in the uk and my ex doing bankruptcy in ireland can or will be possible.

Cantalia said:
Defeated you said you handed over the keys and they were not accepted. Send them by registered post. Keep the receipt. Send them a copy of the receipt a week later.
I would have thought a bank is not allowed to refuse the surrender of a property by so declaring and handing in the keys?? Does anyone know?
Click to expand...

Im only starting into all this so as ive mentioned above ive no idea until i speak to my ex partner of what direction she will go, Ive no wish to leave her to shoulder the burden while i walk away scott free from the UK, i will need to see what she plans to do if anything.

Bronte said:
I don't believe NI bankruptcy is an option for you, because it has been pointed out by those who deal with bankruptcy, particularly Steve Thatcher on this website that a man in the situation the OP is in will not work, as he is separated and has kids in the republic. A single man with no ties, or a married man who moved his whole family North would work.

Therefore his option is UK bankruptcy. It's the quickest easiest and simplest. Yes it's going to be a hell of a year for you, but haven't you lived through far worse in the last couple of years.

I don't agree with the advice on renting out the house, Ulster bank already rejected this offer from you, but in any case, as a landlord myself, it's not just simple a matter of paying the rent as mortgage to the bank. You'll run into all sorts of costs, NPPR, PRTB, tax, the list is endless. Despite what many people think, there is a cost to being a landlord. Furthermore, the rent is way below the mortgage, all you'd be doing is running up more and more arrears.

You need to be VERY careful about handing back the keys. As this could impact future entitlement to rent allowance from social welfare. So it could be that repossession is better for you.

I'm not a bit surprised at Ulster banks attitude to you. They are a waste of space. It's all about shifting goalposts and avoiding crystalisation of their losses.

Some questions.

You are entitled to a basic standard of living, including renting your own place. How come Mabs did not take this into account. Could you please do the money makeover thread as it will give us a better idea of your finances. Are you sure you would get 4K for the car. Have you made a list of what you will need to have financially to live in the UK for a year. I think the advice of getting some kind of job over there is a good one. You are allowed hold down a job in the UK while you go bankrupt. When you've come up with a figure of how much you need you may need to consider stop paying the Mabs amount in order to build up enough cash. While the kids are young is a very good time to go. Think of the positive, in 18 months you come back debt free, you can start again, you're relatively young and you can then contribute to your family in a more meaningful way, rather than being at the mercy of the bank, their attitude, and robbing peter to pay paul. That is not healthy.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately im thinking the UK route will now be the easiest option, its bad enough without the belfast judge postponing ect. I have no problem working in any job so i will be pursuing anything i can get, be it cleaning toilets, beggars cant be choosers when it comes to the situation i am currently in. Having spoken to the advisor last night i plan on stopping all payments with the exception of maintenance from monday.

JayPee said:
I would like to second that point on the mabs payments, you are insolvent, you need to save as much as you can to fund a move to the UK if that is what you finally decide on, it's not cheap.So stop paying your creditors as agreed with mabs.
Click to expand...

Yes i have been told that, i have tried to do what was physically possible regarding paying my debts but there is only so much morally standing by your debts you can do till you are worn out mentally, ive tried and unless i go to the uk i will forever be hounded from one institute or another for a long long time!
 
Defeated,
I think a meeting with a PIP might help you out, try and get someone that is offering free advice atm (I understand Grant Thounton are offering this) but at the end of the day you should get some good info for no more than €300. If you stop all payments to creditors you could manage this.The one thing you need to sort out is the shortfall on your mortgage and how it will impact on your ex's financial standing ,will she apply for PI or bankruptcy etc.
 
Given your financial circumstances I really don't see bankruptcy as being a realistic option. The only assets you appear to have is your house and your car and your income is below the threshold at which you could be expected to contribute towards your debts. In terms of your former partner, I am assuming that her financial position is not much better than yours. So what is the worst that can happen to you?
Mortgage debt; - You are satisfied to relinqish the property and have already advised UB of this. In line with what previous poster has advised, send them a registered letter, reiterating that you will co-operate in either a sale or re-posession of the property. Again advise them of your financial circumstances and that you have no capacity to meet any shortfall on the negative equity. They may huff and puff at this but in reality they will ultimately have to accept it.
Other creditors;- provided that your net income is below the living standard thresholds, you have no capacity to meet any repayments on these debts. Write to the various creditors with a full outline of your financial details and advise them that you are not in a position to meet any loan repayments. They have the option of taking legal action against you, but even if they do, no Court will award an installment order given your financial circumstances.
Ultimately you are technically bankrupt, but unless there is scope for your financial circumstances to considerably improve in the medium term, there is very little to be gained by taking the bankruptcy route. Given your low income and lack of assets, there is no benefit to any of your creditors in taking legal action. Most will write off the debt after sending out some threatening letters.
like many others, you got into financial difficulties well above your head. While you are now at the bottom of the slope, your are young and presumable healthy. Don't let your future prospects be spoiled by these burdens. Realistically you have no spare funds and no assets so there is nothing further that any creditors can do to you. Start planning for the future and don't let the past mistakes dictate your future. Enjoy your kids and start taking your life back in hand!!!
 
I don't really understand the thinking behind this all lately, someone who does not earn enough money is just supposed to put this on the long finger, accruing interest along the way simply because a PIP would not take his case. The creditors will surelly keep hounding him, sure the mortgage shortfall will become unsecured dept, th € 48 k credit union will still be there, and if they do take him to court the judge might not award an order against him, but is it really sound to assume that the creditors will simply write off these depts. This could drag on for years under these circumstances. This is a sham, isn't this PI supposed to help people out, every day people in the position of the OP. It seems to becoming clearer that people that have a wage that is on or below the living standards set out are not going to get any help at all from anyone.
 
The whole purpose of insolvency legislation is to achieve a solution where those who are over-burdened with debt can reach a solution with their creditors within a realistic time-frame. In fairnes to the creditors this will involve disposal of assets, which may or may not include the family home. However where a creditor has no assets and no excess funds to meet debt repayments, insolvency legislation is ineffective. Financial institutions are practical people. they have no interest in pursuing those who have no ability to pay them. TYhe statute of limitations will wipe out all unsecured debt after a 6 year period, so unless the debtors financial citcumstances is likely to change within that period, there is no benefit in seeking protection from insolvency legislation. How can you actually help people who are earning below the minimum survival wage? If they have no ability to pay their creditors, they don't need help as the creditors have no remedies against them.
 
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