New property tax

[kkelliher]

Feel free to explain the hand-waving vague "linked in some manner" and what relevance it has.

You might as well say "Your IT job is linked in some manner to the high price of Dublin escorts".

As has been discussed in the media at length by nearly every economist the Irish property industry and the subsequent vast amounts of tax money generated by it for the governement allowed them to put alot of it back into the IDA to gain jobs via foreign investment programmes ad incentives

Somehow I dont think the "dublin escorts" have had the same effect

You seem to not understand the difference between "unable to" and "want to". I myself could have stretched to paying a considerable mortgage. However, when looking at historical trends in house prices, it seemed insane. I was right. And those who were wrong now want me to bail them out.

I simply dont understand your point in the context of this discussion. Just because you didnt want to or were unable to purchase a property does not give you or anyone else the right to request that second home owners bail out the country. How have you bailed them out? I own a second home and you certianly will not be bailing me out in any way.

You point in relation to "historical trends" has no bearing as wages, inflation, the move to the Euro and many other reasons have made "hostorical trends" redundant as our system changed to a totally new system when we joined the Euro and we dont have the opportunity to instigate the fiscal policies that resulted in the trends of the past.

 

[foghorn]

As has been discussed in the media at length by nearly every economist the Irish property industry and the subsequent vast amounts of tax money generated by it for the governement allowed them to put alot of it back into the IDA to gain jobs via foreign investment programmes ad incentives

I've seen some rewrites of history, but never someone claiming that it was the Irish property industry that created the boom in the first place. So all those Canny McSavvys and developers who were merely moving money from the younger generation to the older generation were actually selflessly _generating_ wealth? Companies like Iona, founded in 1991, well before any property bubble, and Dell which came to Ireland in 1990, depended on a property bubble that came several years later?

I think you may have your cart and horse (house?) mixed up.

Oh, and please quote these economists you base your arguments on, just to see how right these economists were.

I simply dont understand your point in the context of this discussion. Just because you didnt want to or were unable to purchase a property does not give you or anyone else the right to request that second home owners bail out the country. How have you bailed them out? I own a second home and you certianly will not be bailing me out in any way.

If you are not someone who wants mortgage forgiveness, then fine, at least you're being consistent.

the move to the Euro and many other reasons have made "hostorical trends" redundant

Ireland is a new paradigm.

We are not like other countries.

Yes, indeed, I remember all those mantras. It's rather strange to meet someone who still believes them; like stumbling across a WW2 Japanese
soldier on Bull Island.

 

[kkelliher]

I've seen some rewrites of history, but never someone claiming that it was the Irish property industry that created the boom in the first place. So all those Canny McSavvys and developers who were merely moving money from the younger generation to the older generation were actually selflessly _generating_ wealth? Companies like Iona, founded in 1991, well before any property bubble, and Dell which came to Ireland in 1990, depended on a property bubble that came several years later?

I think you may have your cart and horse (house?) mixed up.

Oh, and please quote these economists you base your arguments on, just to see how right these economists were.



If you are not someone who wants mortgage forgiveness, then fine, at least you're being consistent.



Ireland is a new paradigm.

We are not like other countries.

Yes, indeed, I remember all those mantras. It's rather strange to meet someone who still believes them; like stumbling across a WW2 Japanese
soldier on Bull Island.

Foghorn is a very good nickname

 

[Guest116]

I think you may be exaggerating a bit here.

If that happened i know a lot of people who could buy them outright for cash from their savings.

And if they even had half of that saved then they could pay the rest back to the bank for about €55 a week over 25 years.

Or even if someone borrowed the whole lot, it would cost them about €125 a week.

The dole would be enough pay for that. Imagine 3 people on the dole taking a room each and sharing that mortgage. What a life.

Yeah I agree, if a 3 bed semi in a good part of dublin goes to 102k then I will buy another one and rent it. In fact I'd buy a few - if I had the money

 

[Wexfordguy]

HOWEVER! I expect the government to reel in its own spending first and foremost by implementing immediate pay cuts across the public sector and followed up by a detailed analysis of who does what with redundancies for wasters being the norm. The 'job for life' mentality must be a thing of the past. Everyone must take their part of the pain so our country may recover.

Why the public sector?
Did the public sector force the prices of properties to ridiculous heights as its employees attempted to get richer at the expense of first time buyeres?
No.

It was private sector individuals,consortiums and other vested interests that were quite happy to inflate the housing markets to suit thier own selfish ends.

When times were good the public sector got pay rises in line with inflation,now times are bad the greedy leeches respinsible for this mess want them hit in the pocket to defray thier own costs.
Typical.

 

[MrMan]

Why the public sector?
Did the public sector force the prices of properties to ridiculous heights as its employees attempted to get richer at the expense of first time buyeres?
No.

It was private sector individuals,consortiums and other vested interests that were quite happy to inflate the housing markets to suit thier own selfish ends.

When times were good the public sector got pay rises in line with inflation,now times are bad the greedy leeches respinsible for this mess want them hit in the pocket to defray thier own costs.
Typical.

I think everyone needs a bit of balance at this stage, no one group of people were entirely responsible, we all will have to bear the brunt of any recovery. It is in nobodys interest to sit back and point fingers while it all falls down around our ears. What use is being right when you will end up in the same state as those that are wrong?

 

[minion]

One of the events that happens in a recession is Finger pointing by everyone.

This is then encouraged by government and employers groups so that they can put their collective hands in the pockets of both public and private sectors.

 

[Jister]

I think you may be exaggerating a bit here.

If that happened i know a lot of people who could buy them outright for cash from their savings. Even if its impossible to rent them and there is a tax of, say,€1000 +stamp duty and legal fees etc.?

And if they even had half of that saved then they could pay the rest back to the bank for about €55 a week over 25 years. What bank can spare money for speculators at the moment, thats what got us in trouble in the first place

Or even if someone borrowed the whole lot, it would cost them about €125 a week. are banks giving out 100% mortgages for BTL again?

The dole would be enough pay for that. Imagine 3 people on the dole taking a room each and sharing that mortgage. What a life.Soon there will be 500000 people on the dole, there is no way the government will be able to hand out €200+ per week to that many people, the dole will be slashed bit by bit

100K in Dublin is a bit Ambitious but €150K for a 3 bed semi in a reasonable area outside the M50 is not far away, I'd say we will see that before the year is out.

 

[Guest116]

100K in Dublin is a bit Ambitious but €150K for a 3 bed semi in a reasonable area outside the M50 is not far away, I'd say we will see that before the year is out.

Of course we will have another decrease this year in prices, but I dont think you will see a decrease by over 50%! Do you really think so?

 

[Jister]

Of course we will have another decrease this year in prices, but I dont think you will see a decrease by over 50%! Do you really think so?

Why not - because "Ireland is different"?

I would rule nothing out at this atage. The real capitulation, when banks start offloading en masse is not far off now.

 

[Guest116]

Why not - because "Ireland is different"?

I would rule nothing out at this atage. The real capitulation, when banks start offloading en masse is not far off now.

If alone because Ireland is NOT different, I dont think such a decrease has ever been seen over 12 months on the back of serious decreases just before it.

Honestly askaboutmoney is becoming a place full of hyped up ****!

 

[minion]

100K in Dublin is a bit Ambitious but €150K for a 3 bed semi in a reasonable area outside the M50 is not far away, I'd say we will see that before the year is out.

Read what you're writing.

And do a bit of research before you come out with stupid answers.

How much is stamp duty on 100k? How much stamp duty for FTBs.

Do you really think a bank wont lend 50k to someone who puts up 50k themselves.

So a bank gives a 90% mortgage and the person has to pay another tenner a week.

The bit about people on the dole was an obvious joke. Just to highlight you're exaggeration in your previous posts.

Time to get a grip on reality here.

Just 1 question for you.

Are you being serious when you say €150K for a 3 bed semi in a reasonable area outside the M50 is not far away.

Surely you arent.

Do some sums man.

 

[Jister]

Are you being serious when you say €150K for a 3 bed semi in a reasonable area outside the M50 is not far away.

The market sets the price not you or me. There are no buyers, there are many, many sellers.

 

[minion]

The market sets the price not you or me. There are no buyers, there are many, many sellers.

Yes, i know the market sets the price. Thats not what im arguing.

Come on admit it. You are pulling numbers out of your a*se without even thinking about them. This much is obvious

 

[gm88]

Regarding the €200 second property tax, we (4 children) have inherited equal shares in the family home. Property on market since last summer with not a single bid.

Are each of the four of us liable for €200 each or €50 each since we have no sale yet?

 

[Lialus]

In theroy I am in favour of a property tax (with regard to ablity to pay) rather than on a sale (A tax based on sale value , impeeds the market , reduces personal flexiblity and increases long term debt of individuals) while a properly implemented property tax helps to stablise a market.

To introduce a tax now is not a fair time to introduce one. Many people made a decision based to purchase based on all material facts , including the absence of property tax.
( I do not own a second property or even a first )
In these abnormal circumstances implementing the €200 per annum tax for second homes is effectivly a trap as many people are unable to sell a second property in order to reduce tax liablity as they would probably not be able to offset the sale price against the debt attached to the property. However €4 per week is not particularly onerous for most 2 property owners.
Implementing a property tax generally would provide greater unfairness , as we all know many people are in a negative equity suitation they shall not be able to adjust there circumstances to reduce there tax liablity by selecting an alternative property as the proceeds from the sale shall not cover the costs of changing.

If we were to reduce or abolish Stamp Duty in order to allow for the implemetation of a property tax , this would further exercasabate the problem, as the costs of adjusting your circumstances to your means would be prohibitive. Futher trapping people to living in there previous property decision , we would not get the benifit of a property tax ( i.e. freer markets ).

To get some benifit , we need to be able to allow an offset of the Stamp Duty paid , against Property Tax , but not against it all. This offset should disappear with first sale , or in a defined period ( prehaps 5 years ).

However , Stamp duty should be reduced drastically , and property tax introduced as soon as the circumstances allow.