investing in hotel rooms

Didn't the same problems arise at the Citywest Hotel, with unit owners eventually breaking in and holding a sit-in? Once the problems started those who had invested in the units stopped receiving their income, and their legal challenge failed as the planning granted for the development didn't allow for the units to be divided and sold as separate entities.

What's in it for the hotel management besides a cash injection? They get additional overheads and then have to pay a fixed rate regardless of whether the room is occupied or not.
 
So you are looking at risky investments if you want more than 5% return.

One of the sectors that really lost out in Irealnd after the bust was hotels who had borrowed way too much and plenty of them ended up in Nama and many have now been sold off cheap.

even today , 5% is quite a low yield when it comes to property investment , I could get 7% on an apartment on hundreds of apartments across Dublin were I to buy today , let alone outside the capital

were I just looking for 5% , id buy shares in an oil major , most of them are paying more than 5% in dividends right now , plenty of commercial investments with 9% and more yield available
 
even today , 5% is quite a low yield when it comes to property investment , I could get 7% on an apartment on hundreds of apartments across Dublin were I to buy today , let alone outside the capital

were I just looking for 5% , id buy shares in an oil major , most of them are paying more than 5% in dividends right now , plenty of commercial investments with 9% and more yield available

I'm always keen to expand my investments not in property at thr moment just ETF's had a look at property but the numbers didn't add up to make it worthwhile ( granted I didn't spend too much time looking at it ) .
What are you currently invested in ? Would this hotel thing be just a small part of your overall investment I'm keen to take extra risk for reward but the prices for a room would he too big for me that it would take such a large part of my overall wealth at that moment .
 
Didn't the same problems arise at the Citywest Hotel, with unit owners eventually breaking in and holding a sit-in?

Good memory Leo

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/man-vows-to-continue-citywest-sit-in-protest-1.610302

A MAN who is staging a sit-in at an apartment in Dublin has said he will continue his protest until his mother is guaranteed ownership and the future of the development is clarified.


Thomas Bradshaw broke a window in a ground-floor suite of the Citywest Golf Hotel, next to the Citywest Hotel, Saggart, and moved in after his mother, Angela Bradshaw, was refused access to it although she pays a mortgage for it of €2,400 a month.

...
Investor owners could buy the suites and then lease them back to Mr Mansfield. There was a guaranteed rent return of about €800 a month for seven years, with an option for a further 14 years. Investors also received a tax break.


Some 140 suites were sold at a total cost of €52 million. The golf hotel was run by HSS, which controls the Citywest complex and the rent payments were met for the first few years. Property management company, Capitacorp, run by Jack Kinnerk, managed and dispersed the rent to investors.


After five years, financial difficulties with HSS meant the rent ceased.


I must say that I prefer a balanced portfolio of equities.
 
Think that's a fair assessment Brendan , your probably looking at equalling the return on equities for more risk and less diversification.
 
So you are looking at risky investments if you want more than 5% return

Just to add, the benchmark return for Euro REITs over the past 5 years has been about 13%. Given that these are much larger and well diversified, you need to be coming in well above 13% before considering such risks.
 
Just to add, the benchmark return for Euro REITs over the past 5 years has been about 13%. Given that these are much larger and well diversified, you need to be coming in well above 13% before considering such risks.

Wow that's huge cheers will need to take a good look at these .
 
Sounds wonderful doesn't it.

Are you been sarcastic ? I'm not sure sorry ? What's the general feeling of these compared to purchasing a buy to let?

The REIT is far more diversified but the dividend in the above example is low at about 2-3% , I need to do more research into them my initial thinking is when interest rates are low Reits will do well as it's cheap to borrow , when interest rates rise they won't do as well but I could just take my money out or my other monies earning low % in bank will now be able to earn more so a REIT is a good thing for my portfolio as long as interest rates stay low they should do ok ( very basic thinking and I'm probably wrong ! , but welcome opinions )
 
Only sarcastic in that it only points out they seemingly made a lot of money last year, but it does not actually tell us what kind of return it was. One would have to know exactly what one was investing in, whether costs can go out of control depending on management decisions, and if returns are just as likely to go up as down. I don't like the fact it seems one seems to have very little control. One good year does not make a good investment.
 
I'm always keen to expand my investments not in property at thr moment just ETF's had a look at property but the numbers didn't add up to make it worthwhile ( granted I didn't spend too much time looking at it ) .
What are you currently invested in ? Would this hotel thing be just a small part of your overall investment I'm keen to take extra risk for reward but the prices for a room would he too big for me that it would take such a large part of my overall wealth at that moment .

ive no intention of investing in hotel rooms , I just wanted to discuss this relatively rare form of investment
 
Just to add, the benchmark return for Euro REITs over the past 5 years has been about 13%. Given that these are much larger and well diversified, you need to be coming in well above 13% before considering such risks.

I presume you are combining capital appreciation and yield , when I speak of 7% being available on apartments in Dublin , im soley referring to income , asset appreciation is a bonus if it happens but you cant live off it
 
Are you been sarcastic ? I'm not sure sorry ? What's the general feeling of these compared to purchasing a buy to let?

The REIT is far more diversified but the dividend in the above example is low at about 2-3% , I need to do more research into them my initial thinking is when interest rates are low Reits will do well as it's cheap to borrow , when interest rates rise they won't do as well but I could just take my money out or my other monies earning low % in bank will now be able to earn more so a REIT is a good thing for my portfolio as long as interest rates stay low they should do ok ( very basic thinking and I'm probably wrong ! , but welcome opinions )


you cant borrow to invest in a REIT , can you ?

there a financial asset at the end of the day
 
I presume you are combining capital appreciation and yield , when I speak of 7% being available on apartments in Dublin , im soley referring to income , asset appreciation is a bonus if it happens but you cant live off it

Is that 7% yield a gross or net figure? It is certainly possible to achieve a gross yield of 7% (or more) on Dublin apartments at the moment but I would suggest that achieving a net yield of 7% (before financing costs and income tax) would be much more challenging, outside of relatively low income areas (which obviously carry additional risks).

If you are financing the acquisition with a BTL mortgage at 5%, and 25% of interest payments are non-deductible for income tax purposes, then even a 7% net yield (before financing costs and income tax) is not really viable.
 
Is that 7% yield a gross or net figure? It is certainly possible to achieve a gross yield of 7% (or more) on Dublin apartments at the moment but I would suggest that achieving a net yield of 7% (before financing costs and income tax) would be much more challenging, outside of relatively low income areas (which obviously carry additional risks).

If you are financing the acquisition with a BTL mortgage at 5%, and 25% of interest payments are non-deductible for income tax purposes, then even a 7% net yield (before financing costs and income tax) is not really viable.

you don't deduct for income tax when quantifying yield no more than you quote your income after tax dedcutions

you don't deduct for cost of financing either but I would not borrow for an investment which only returned 7% , I would borrow on commercial property which yields 9% however
 
when I say 7% yield , I am deduction the cost of management fees , property tax and house insurance however , management fee in the case of apartments , these would be in average areas of Dublin , you wont get 6% or close to it in D6
 
I think you may have misread my post - I tried to make it clear that you don't deduct financing costs or income tax in calculating the net yield on a rental property.

The gross yield on a rental property generally refers to the realistically achievable annual rent expressed as a percentage of the acquisition cost of the property, assuming no voids or defaults on the part of the tenant. Bear in mind that the acquisition costs includes stamp duty, land registry fees, legal fees (plus VAT), in addition to the purchase price itself.

To arrive at the net yield figure you deduct a percentage amount to provide for all void periods as well as all costs and expenses, actual and imputed. Costs would include letting and management agent commissions, annual OMC charge and levies, LPT, PRTB registration fees, maintenance and repairs, advertising, insurance, legal and accountancy costs. Even if you self-manage a property, you should still account for your time in this calculation in order to arrive at a useful figure to compare with the yield on purely passive investments such as deposits and equities.

Having reviewed rental accounts over a prolonged period of time, I would suggest that a gross yield figure should be reduced by 30% to arrive at a useful net figure. Some years expenses will be well below this amount but, as anybody who has ever had to evict a defaulting tenant will tell you, some years they can be well above this amount. In my experience, 30% represents the average amount of expenses, actual and imputed, that a residential rental property will consume from the (anticipated) gross yield over a long-term holding period.

On this basis, a net yield of 7% actually implies a gross yield of 10%. I would suggest that only properties in areas of Dublin with below average incomes would achieve a gross yield anywhere close to 10%. There is a higher risk of renting properties in low income areas as there is a greater likelihood that a tenant will default on the terms of their tenancy and therefore your projected net yield of 7% may not come to pass.

As always, higher return comes with higher risk. There is no such thing as a free lunch in investing.

Would you finance a purchase at 5% to achieve a net yield of 7% on a risky investment? When you allow for the fact that 25% of interest payments (and LPT) are non-deductible for income tax purposes, you start to see that leveraged rental residential properties rarely (if ever) make sense for ordinary investors in the current environment.
 
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I think you may have misread my post - I tried to make it clear that you don't deduct financing costs or income tax in calculating the net yield on a rental property.

The gross yield on a rental property generally refers to the realistically achievable annual rent expressed as a percentage of the acquisition cost of the property, assuming no voids or defaults on the part of the tenant. Bear in mind that the acquisition costs includes stamp duty, land registry fees, legal fees (plus VAT), in addition to the purchase price itself.

To arrive at the net yield figure you deduct a percentage amount to provide for all void periods as well as all costs and expenses, actual and imputed. Costs would include letting and management agent commissions, annual OMC charge and levies, LPT, PRTB registration fees, maintenance and repairs, advertising, insurance, legal and accountancy costs. Even if you self-manage a property, you should still account for your time in this calculation in order to arrive at a useful figure to compare with the yield on purely passive investments such as deposits and equities.

Having reviewed rental accounts over a prolonged period of time, I would suggest that a gross yield figure should be reduced by 30% to arrive at a useful net figure. Some years expenses will be well below this amount but, as anybody who has ever had to evict a defaulting tenant will tell you, some years they can be well above this amount. In my experience, 30% represents the average amount of expenses, actual and imputed, that a residential rental property will consume from the (anticipated) gross yield over a long-term holding period.

On this basis, a net yield of 7% actually implies a gross yield of 10%. I would suggest that only properties in areas of Dublin with below average incomes would achieve a gross yield anywhere close to 10%. There is a higher risk of renting properties in low income areas as there is a greater likelihood that a tenant will default on the terms of their tenancy and therefore your projected net yield of 7% may not come to pass.

As always, higher return comes with higher risk. There is no such thing as a free lunch in investing.

Would you finance a purchase at 5% to achieve a net yield of 7% on a risky investment? When you allow for the fact that 25% of interest payments (and LPT) are non-deductible for income tax purposes, you start to see that leveraged rental residential properties rarely (if ever) make sense for ordinary investors in the current environment.


even at the lows of the market in early 2012 , 10% gross yields were not achievable in the better parts of Dublin 7 or 9 , historically speaking , yields are somewhere in the middle right now
 
Huh? What do historic yields have to do with a discussion about current investment options?
 
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