How much privacy are we entitled to?

D

delgirl

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My friend, I'll call her Julie, has asked me to post this thread and to get some advice on a problem which has exasperated her.

Julie lives in a small housing estate of 18 detached 4/5 bed homes with large gardens.

The problem is that Julie's next door neighbour has 4 children who treat Julie's property as their own - they climb over the fence into the back garden when my friend is home and even when she not home; they are constantly in her front garden and, as they're too small to reach the doorbell, they repeatidly kick the front door and the side glass panel to get attention.

When Julie's family are having a meal either in the kitchen (which has large windows and doors at the rear of the house) the kids next door are up on the fence shouting, throwing things into the garden and generally causing a disturbance.

Julie spoke really calmly to her neighbour when it first happened last summer and asked that the kids not climb over the fence into her garden and stand on the fence when they are quietly enjoying their deck / garden or entertaining guests and the response she received was 'it's my fence and if my children want to stand on it or climb over it, then that's fine'.

It's turned into a bit of a feud now with the two female neighbours no longer speaking to each other. Julie last week raised the height of the back garden fence on her side of the boundary to the allowed 2 meters to deter the children. She also installed a heavy wooden gate at the top of the driveway at the front of the property.

Unfortunately, the children are still climbing over the fence at the back - the youngest is 4 years old and her mother seems to think it's okay for her to climb over a 2 meter high fence - and they have discovered that they can crawl under a space at the bottom of the front gate to get access to the front garden and front door.

Julie has asked the children to get off the fence even when the mother or father of the children is in their back garden. The children refuse and the parents do nothing to intervene.

2 days ago the neighbours decided to move their dog kennel from the far side of their house to the side next to Julie's house. This very athletic dog is now climbing up on his kennel, onto the fence, onto my friend's shed roof and is jumping down into her garden, is 'doing his business' all over the place and is terrorising the cat.

My friend asked the neighbour's son to come and get the dog 4 times in one day and the neighbour still hasn't done anything about the problem. The last time she asked him to take the dog back, she heard his mother say to him and the other children 'don't let anyone tell you where you can or cannot go or play'.

Julie has spoken to the carpenter who erected the gate to ask if a rubber flap could be attached to the bottom of the gate to stop the children crawling under it (the gate had to have a gap at the bottom because of an uneven driveway).

She's just exasperated at this stage and is wondering what, if any, rights does one have to privacy and the peaceful enjoyment of one's own home and garden and how best to tackle the situation without causing outright war or without going to even greater lengths and expense to secure her property.
 
A friend of mine has a problem with kids walking along the top of his boundry wall, he is not allowed to afix anything to the top of the wall to deter the kids, but he did smear the top with heavy duty motor grease, when the kids put their hands up to climb the walls they dont go much further! Not sure if this is legal but he is getting results!
 
My parents did the same with black greasy tar stuff - not exactly sure what it was. However, they noticed that the washing on the line was covered in little black marks from birds that had landed on the wall and then on the washing!
 
delgirl said:
My friend, I'll call her Julie, has asked me to post this thread and to get some advice on a problem which has exasperated her.

Julie lives in a small housing estate of 18 detached 4/5 bed homes with large gardens.

The problem is that Julie's next door neighbour has 4 children who treat Julie's property as their own - they climb over the fence into the back garden when my friend is home and even when she not home; they are constantly in her front garden and, as they're too small to reach the doorbell, they repeatidly kick the front door and the side glass panel to get attention.

When Julie's family are having a meal either in the kitchen (which has large windows and doors at the rear of the house) the kids next door are up on the fence shouting, throwing things into the garden and generally causing a disturbance.

Julie spoke really calmly to her neighbour when it first happened last summer and asked that the kids not climb over the fence into her garden and stand on the fence when they are quietly enjoying their deck / garden or entertaining guests and the response she received was 'it's my fence and if my children want to stand on it or climb over it, then that's fine'.

It's turned into a bit of a feud now with the two female neighbours no longer speaking to each other. Julie last week raised the height of the back garden fence on her side of the boundary to the allowed 2 meters to deter the children. She also installed a heavy wooden gate at the top of the driveway at the front of the property.

Unfortunately, the children are still climbing over the fence at the back - the youngest is 4 years old and her mother seems to think it's okay for her to climb over a 2 meter high fence - and they have discovered that they can crawl under a space at the bottom of the front gate to get access to the front garden and front door.

Julie has asked the children to get off the fence even when the mother or father of the children is in their back garden. The children refuse and the parents do nothing to intervene.

2 days ago the neighbours decided to move their dog kennel from the far side of their house to the side next to Julie's house. This very athletic dog is now climbing up on his kennel, onto the fence, onto my friend's shed roof and is jumping down into her garden, is 'doing his business' all over the place and is terrorising the cat.

My friend asked the neighbour's son to come and get the dog 4 times in one day and the neighbour still hasn't done anything about the problem. The last time she asked him to take the dog back, she heard his mother say to him and the other children 'don't let anyone tell you where you can or cannot go or play'.

Julie has spoken to the carpenter who erected the gate to ask if a rubber flap could be attached to the bottom of the gate to stop the children crawling under it (the gate had to have a gap at the bottom because of an uneven driveway).

She's just exasperated at this stage and is wondering what, if any, rights does one have to privacy and the peaceful enjoyment of one's own home and garden and how best to tackle the situation without causing outright war or without going to even greater lengths and expense to secure her property.
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Sounds like the dog is loose and not under the owners control, so dog warden for him....

Did you contact the guards to see if anything can be done... I am sure that passed something to make trespassing a criminal matter a few years ago...

Don’t forget they can still sue you if the kids get hurt on your land...
 
Is there any chance that common sense could prevail? Could the two ladies discuss it over a bottle of wine and come to some agreement? Could the menfolk bring sense to bear on their respective partners? Battles with neighbours are bad news, regardless of the rights & wrongs. You can see this has escalated with the move of the dog kennel, and is likely to continue to escalate unless someone finds a solution.

To be honest, I think the neighbour has a point about about the kids rights to climb on the fence, but Julie has a right to ensure they don't climb over the fence. Are there any fast-growing prickly thorn bushes that might act as a deterrent?
 
I've seen and heard of tar beeing used sucessfully before as well. Argument for use could be to keep crows away, perfectly legal reason.
If I repetedly found my neighbours dog in my garden adn he/she wasn't doing anything about it, I would report it as a stray dog, especially if the neighbours weren't there.
Another active deterrant would be a big, mean looking dog, like a doberman (they aren't anywhere near as vicious as they are made out to be). That'll certainly keep the kids away.
If the kids are trespassing on her property, she should be able to make a legal matter out of this, but the guards or a solicitor would be able to better advise you.
I also agree, that approaching the neighbours with reason again, should be done, before taking any further action. There is always a slim chance that they come to their sences.
 
There is legislation in Ireland I think this lady (and all the other posters above) need to be aware of. It's called the Occupiers Liability Act, 1995.

Many people have expressed concern about the increasing number of court cases involving visitors - invited and otherwise - who sue property owners and occupiers for damage arising from an accident or injury. The law on the subject has now been put on to a statutory basis by the Occupiers' Liability Act 1995. The Act aims to simplify and clarify the rules which up to now have been common law rules only.

Your duty as the occupier of premises differs depending on the kind of people who come onto the property - each person on your property is either a visitor, a recreational user or a trespasser. This law does not affect existing laws which deal specifically with certain groups e.g. it does not affect employers' duties towards their employees nor the duty of hoteliers to their customers. It is mainly designed to deal with people coming into homes, customers going into shops, people walking on farms etc.

Trespassers are people who are neither visitors not recreational users. While I have established that you normally have a duty of care to visitors to your home, you have a lesser duty to recreational users and trespassers. Trespassers - are those whom you have not invited.

While you have a lesser duty to those people, you also have a duty to neither injure them intentionally nor damage their property intentionally.

There was a very interesting case about this very issue some time ago - I believe here in Dublin. From my vague recollection it involved an lady who had persistently experienced nuisance caused by children in her neighbourhood and who lived in fear of their constant errant behaviour. I believe she erected some type of fencing/deterrant around the high walls of her back garden (visiable to everyone) to stop the children entering her garden. I believe she was found liable for injury when a child entered her back garden and was injured climbing over the wall - even though they were trespassing at the time.

In the light of above, I would strongly advise this person not to do anything that would compromise their own position - i.e., do anything that could/may cause injury to their neighbours - particulary in the light of the information I mention above.

It may be useful to have a word with the Gardai regarding this matter to see if some sort of amicable arrangement could be arrived at. Your Residents Association (if one exists) may also be of assistance or may be able to help mediate in the circumstances.

You are also free of course to obtain legal advice on this matter - however it is unfortunate if things end up in the Courts where parental control could probably easily remedy these matters.

I hope this has been of assistance.
 
Love the grease and tar ideas, but don't think it would go down too well with the neighbour if her little darlings got it on their clothes! It would also have obviously been placed there for the sole purpose of deterring the kids and would, imo, cause an rapid escalation in an already tense situation.

Is there any chance that common sense could prevail? Could the two ladies discuss it over a bottle of wine and come to some agreement?
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Agree with you 100% Rainyday - have also suggested this to Julie, but, in fairness to her, she has tried a few times over the past year to gently let the neighbour know that there's a problem, only to be told in no uncertain terms that her children can do as they please.

There are trees on the way as we speak - tall ones which are already above the height of the 2m fence and which will eventualy spread to form a barrier.

The unfortunate thing about all of this is that the neighbour with the errant kids is just about to lose her prized sea view from her home if Julie plants these tall trees, but it will have been of her own making.

Watch this space - it may turn into a Chainsaw Massacre!
 
CMCR, many thanks for your response, I have printed all the comments for Julie and thanks to everyone who posted.

I remember the incident of the lady in Dublin who was taken to Court. She lived next to a green area where children played football and was constantly disturbed by them hoping over her wall to retrieve their balls.

From what I remember, she actually had broken glass placed/cemented on top of her wall to deter the children. The kid who climbed over had done so on other occasions and was not aware that glass had been put on the wall and consequently injured himself.

The judge felt that she was liable as she knew that the children were going to climb over again to retrieve their balls and she therefore knew that they would be injured in the process. He also said that she must accept the consequences of living beside a green area and that is that children are going to play there.

It's one of those laws that confounds most of us like the 'use only reasonable force against a burglar in your home' one, which beggars belief!

If someone came into my home I certainly wouldn't wait to see what he was going to do to me first, I'd hit him with whatever I could get my hands on and as hard as I could. If that happened to be a knife, then so be it - he should not have been in my home, threatening me and my children with his presence.
 
delgirl said:
I remember the incident of the lady in Dublin who was taken to Court. She lived next to a green area where children played football and was constantly disturbed by them hoping over her wall to retrieve their balls.

From what I remember, she actually had broken glass placed/cemented on top of her wall to deter the children. The kid who climbed over had done so on other occasions and was not aware that glass had been put on the wall and consequently injured himself.

The judge felt that she was liable as she knew that the children were going to climb over again to retrieve their balls and she therefore knew that they would be injured in the process. He also said that she must accept the consequences of living beside a green area and that is that children are going to play there.

It's one of those laws that confounds most of us like the 'use only reasonable force against a burglar in your home' one, which beggars belief!

If someone came into my home I certainly wouldn't wait to see what he was going to do to me first, I'd hit him with whatever I could get my hands on and as hard as I could. If that happened to be a knife, then so be it - he should not have been in my home, threatening me and my children with his presence.
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I don't think it's a valid comparison. The threat resulting from a burglar in your home is significantly different from the threat resulting from a kid getting their ball back. Having said that, the broken glass treatment was almost mandatory for back walls in my youth.
 
How times change - in my day your Mother threw a wobber and possibly gave you a good wallop if you upset the neighbours.

It is, of course, back to that ol' thing called respect which unfortunately seems to be so sadly lacking these days. :(
 
How right you are Sueellen! The neighbour with the errant children and dog put up new smooth fencing at the weekend, at a cost of E1,800 to deter the dog from jumping into Julie's garden.

Didn't work, the dog was in 3 times yesterday and the kids are still able to climb up onto the fence which is now over 2 meters high. There were 7 kids on the fence yesterday evening shouting and throwing things over and when asked to get off the fence replied 'my Mum says we can play whereever we want'!

Julie's husband lost it, I'm afraid, and yelled at them to f off away from the fence and they went, but I'm sure there will be repercussions from the neighbours.
 
Would that be like the strategically placed garden gnome in [broken link removed] of Fawlty Towers featuring David Kelly as O'Reilly, the dodgy Irish builder? :eek:
 
One thing I would say, is try not to fall into the trap of making it a 'game' for the children. If they find that they can wind up the neighbour, they'll only get worse. Telling them to 'f-off' my bring temporary stress relief, but ultimately will make the problem worse. The mellon heads will continue in their actions, trying to provoke an emotional response.
 
Perhaps a word with the Community Garda would help. They regularly mediate in these type of situations to prevent them escalating further.
 
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